Which BP sub to use

[Dutchy Rodell]

My son and I share my long guns at our monthly CAS match.  I have just started reloading smokless (38 special).  He has Ruger stainless vaqueros.  I have blued 1858 Remington Conversions.  The long guns are a Rossi Model 92 and a Stoeger Coach shotgun.  Last week was the first time we used our own reloaded rounds.  We both have an interest in shooting with BP subs.  I have lots of questions

     1.  Can one of us shoot BP subs and the other smokeless on the same stage?  What problems does this create?

     2.  How frequently should we run a bore snake through the barrels to continue shooting?

     3.  Whiich BP sub would work best for us?

     4.  Do I understand things correctly that the subs should have some degree of compression.  Is this level really generally discovered by trial measuring rather than a specific volume/grain amount?

     5.  If one of us shoots BP sub and the other smokless what would you recomment to distinguish the cartridges from one another?

     6.  I've read that BP and subs can cause dies to rust.  Do you recommend that BP loads be developed using Lee type cc powder measures?  Or alternately how do you clean the dies after using BP/subs

     7.  Are there any manuals that specifically focus on reloading BP cartridges?

     8.  What other things should we consider?

Thanks.   Dutchy

[Pettifogger]

Lots of questions and I'll start the ball rolling by giving some short answers/opinions.

1.  No.   The sub residues and smokeless residues don't always mix well.

2.  With the subs you should be able to go a whole match without cleaning the barrel.

3.  Pyrodex requires the same loading procedures and bullets as real BP.  You probably don't want to use Pyrodex.  777 is good, but has more power than real BP or the other subs.  APP produces good mild loads but is dusty (see below about cleaning the dust) and chunky.  It doesn't meter as well as 777.  Pinnacle is sort of mildly refined APP.  Good stuff, but still dusty.  You can use regular smokeless style bullets with 777, APP, and Pinnacle.

4.  With the subs you don't need any compression, but you don't want any airspace either.  Just add powder to your cases until it comes up to where the bottom of the bullet will be when it is seated.  The actual amount of powder isn't critical.

5.  Take a black magic marker and put a line across the base of your BP shells.  But, see No. 1 above.

6.  The beauty of the subs is that you can use them in regular powder measures.  An air hose is your best friend with APP and Pinnacle.  Make sure you blow all the dust off your reloading equipment when you are done.  Make SURE you put any leftover APP or Pinnacle back in their factory containers.  Don't leave it in your powder measure unless you want to have an excuse to buy a new one.

7.  Yes, but if you are going to shoot subs why waste the money.  Loading is real simple.  Fill case to base of bullet. Shove in bullet.  Shoot.  Makes lots of smoke and smile

8.  Consider how much fun you are NOT having by shooting smokeless.

[hellgate]

1-Never done it but if I was to share guns I go to the range with a good sandbag rest and shoot a 5 shot group at 25 or 50 yards with the smokeless loads. Then shoot 10 rounds through the gun with the sub then try another 5 shot group with the smokeless. If the second group is the same size as the first then you'll do fine.
2-If the smokeless groups open up after the 10 rounds of sub I would snake it after each sub string.
3-I would recommend 777 as my first choice. Pyrodex would be my last choice (I really don't consider it a sub as it has too many characteristics of BP especially its fouling). Next would be the Goex sub (like APP), Pinnacle and APP in that order.
4-I always work up a load for OAL first to be sure the cartridge feeds reliably. THEN I fiddle with the powder amount and compression. A little compression is fine. Heavy compression causes higher pressures and erratic performance.
5-I color the PRIMERS with magic marker. That way the primer gets knocked out at the next reloading and the case is unmarked. If you tumble enough any marking will come off.
6-I've never bothered to clean my DIES however I've had my Redding powder measure freeze up with rust from Black Canyon (an ancestor to APP). So far, no problem with my Dillon SD3 and 777.

As long as you stay in category i see no problem. The subs (forget about Pyrodex. I burn it up in the shotgun) tend to be more corrosive on the BRASS rather than the guns. I have Rossis. So far, no problemo with 777. I use nickled brass for my primo loads but plain brass is fine as long as you dont let it lay around and corrode. Even if the groups don't open up, I'd still do an occasional "pull through" just to keep the chamber clean. I find my 357s can get a little gummy  in the extraction department by the end of the match. Pyro requires a BP lube whereas the other subs will do fine with standard hard lube hardcast bullets.

Let us know how it goes.

[Howdy Doody]

I never have tried it either, but I would think of all the subs 777 would do the best alternating back and forth with smokeless. However until they start marketing the new 777 Cowboy you might find that 777 is a hot load with a full case. It is the hottest by about 15%.
Experimenting would be in order. 

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Well, Howdy - Dutchy!

You've got some great advice here, already.

I'd recommend 777, but you and your son should stick to the same powder at each match due to the residue possibilities.  As to what Howdy said about 777 being more powerful, he's right - but that's generally considered to be 15% more powerful than BP, NOT smokeyless powder.  You CAN come close to the power levels of smokeyless with 777, but it's generally considered to be milder, like ALL BP and subs.  No worries there.

You'll find that if you do NORMAL cleaning of your dies, rust won't be a problem.   (Wipe the outside with a lightly oiled rag and some oil INSIDE won't hurt, either - just use it sparingly.)

As long as you both shoot one powder or the other, use the same cases.  You can alternate powders in the same cases.  However, if you don't want to mix, you have a couple options.  Do you have mixed headstamp brass?  If so, you could buy a quantity of Nickel cases and use them for your "BP" loading.  Beware, nickel (they're actually nickel PLATED over brass) cases will crack sooner than plain brass cases, however, but I have 500 Nickel cases with 4-5  loadings and have only lost a few (maybe 8-10 out of 500) so far - but they ARE showing their age and I now lose some every time they're used.  To compare, I have 2000 Win. brass cases that have 20+ loadings and have lost maybe 4 to cracking. (In 9 years)  Those brass cases have been loaded about 1/2 their life with smokeyless and the rest (all I've shot in the last 5 years) with real BP. 

I will point out something.  Fired cases that have been loaded with BP have to be dunked in water to neutralize the salts in the residue within a couple days so the residue won't destroy the brass.  (This includes Pyrodex, which is a form of real BP, while still legally being a sub)  Now those REAL sub cases have to be rinsed MOST SOONEST after shooting.  They're not very corrosive to steel, but hell on brass!

Makin' lots of smoke is LOTS of fun!

[sundance44`s]

The way I distinquish black powder cartridges from smokeless ...I use CCI silver primmers on my Black Powder loads and Winchester brass color primmers on my smokeless ....just a glance at the bottom of the shells tells me what they are loaded with .

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy!

I forgot to mention this:  the felt recoil characteristics of smokeyless rounds feel different than with BP or subs.  BP and subs are slower burning, producing their recoil slower and over a longer period of time.  What does this feel like?  Well, to me - and many others I've talked with, the BP recoil is more like a shove, while smokeyless is more like a kick.

Happy Trails!

[hellgate]

S H Bailey,
I'd say the recoil ffom smokeless is more like a slap depending on the gun & load. Everywhere from a minor slap (like on the shoulder from a buddy) or a major face slap (like "how DARE you!"). [red cheeked and cringing afterwards]

[Steel Horse Bailey]

And we know how much fun a slap can be! 

Good distinction, 'tho.  When I said a "kick", I meant more like the kick you'd get from yer 3 yr. old grandkid! Not the same kick you'd get from a horse ... or a .460 Weatherby Magnum!!

Your version may well be better - mind if I repeat it?

[w44wcf]

My vote is for Pyrodex.   I have found that it works very well and gives consistantly good accuracy for many , many rounds even with smokeless lubed (50/50 Alox/ Beeswax NRA formula) bullets!   My experience indicates that best results come with a little compression and it even smells a bit like black powder too!    And.......it's cheaper as well.

To clean, I sometimes just fire a few smokeless rounds which will clean out the fouling.

w44wcf

[Dakota Widowmaker]

     1.  Can one of us shoot BP subs and the other smokeless on the same stage?  What problems does this create?

You can, but, not recommended for best accuracy. But since we are talking CAS distance, it won't matter one bit.

     2.  How frequently should we run a bore snake through the barrels to continue shooting?

If you are using big lube boolits, never... just when you get home.

     3.  Whiich BP sub would work best for us?

I have a load of Pyrodex I am still working my way through... APP is pretty clean. GOEX Pinacle is supposed to be "less" like pyrodex and more like BP. If you are shooting cartridge, Just use Pyrodex P with a bit of compression and be done with it.

APP, 777, and BlackMag don't like compression. Pyrodex and Pincacle will be just fine with it.

     4.  Do I understand things correctly that the subs should have some degree of compression.  Is this level really generally discovered by trial measuring rather than a specific volume/grain amount?

This is not always true. Pyrodex needs some, but not alot, of compression. APP needs NO compression. GOEX Pinnacle is the same as Pyrodex as far as compression. 777 and BlackMag should never be comrpessed.

what I do to work up a BP load (if there is such a thing...) is figure out how much space I have to work with. Load up a dummy round w/o primer and use a small stick through the flash hole to see where the base of the bullet ends up. Then, on another cartridge, use that same "water mark" to score or draw a line where that level is.
I use a 2' drop tube and pour in enough powder to get to that level, then dump it out into my scale, measure it, record the info, and add 2gr of extra powder. I use an adjustable powder measure set to hold that exact amount during loading.

I only have to do this once for a combination of bullet, powder, and caliber.

     5.  If one of us shoots BP sub and the other smokless what would you recomment to distinguish the cartridges from one another?

Nickel cases for smokeless, brass cases for BP.

     6.  I've read that BP and subs can cause dies to rust.  Do you recommend that BP loads be developed using Lee type cc powder measures?  Or alternately how do you clean the dies after using BP/subs

Never once seen this happen. I take all my BP carts after a shoot and put them in an ice cream bucket (once I have eaten the good stuff first) with a mix of hot soapy water with some ballistol. About 25:1 on the ballistol.

On the way home from the shoot, they get agitated enough so when I get back to the house, all I do is rinse them with hot tap water and then let them dry. either in the oven on an old cake tray or in the sun. I will tumble BP cases overnight to ensure good case preperation.

     7.  Are there any manuals that specifically focus on reloading BP cartridges?

Yes, and they are all a bit different.

Here are the ones I have...

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Blackpowder-Handbook-Sam-Fadala/dp/0896893901/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1197556300&sr=1-1


http://www.amazon.com/Gun-Digest-Blackpowder-Loading-Manual/dp/0873495748/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1197556300&sr=1-2

     8.  What other things should we consider?

A nice heavy gauge container to store your powder in. Surplus 20MM ammo cans work REALLY well and are thicker than normal 50cal cans.


http://west.loadup.com/military/surplus/1190.html

I got mine a while back from Fleet Farm locally... check out their guns/ammo section or if they have a mil surplus section.

[hellgate]

If I'm looking for particular book I go to  bookfinder.com and do a search. They can list the books by order of price. I often can get used, good condition books for a couple bucks. Sometimes the shipping is more than the book.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy again!

If you fire a quantity of smokeless rounds after firing BP rounds (and for these instances subs are counted as BP) you take a chance of your smokeyless rounds forcing the residue INTO the grooves, like ironing the gunk to the inside of the barrel.  It's the same way that if you are simply shooting lead bullets (s-less) and want to "clean out the barrel" so you fire some jacketed rounds - it LOOKS clean, but you've actually forced some of the residue or leading INTO the pores of the metal of your barrel. 

This doesn't seem to be a problem when firing BP rounds after each other.  Leaves no leading, even if you use the SAME bullets as you load with smokeyless.  There's a popular misconception about leading; most (and I learned this way) feel that if the velocity is too fast, the barrel gets leaded.  Well, that's only PARTLY true.  It depends a LOT more on how well the bullet FITS or SEALS the bore.  The hot flame from nitro powders going past an ill-fitting bullet is the REAL cause of leading. 

Well, there ya go.  As someone mentioned, for CAS purposes, it probably won't matter about mixing types, but the lube part IS very important.  By the way, while waxy lube like is used for smokeyless bullets doesn't work with real BP (but is OK with some of the subs - 777 & APP & Pinnacle) BP friendly lube works fine with smokeyless powder and hard-cast bullets.

[Pettifogger]

Pinnacle is nothing like Pyrodex.  It is made by the people that make APP and is virtually the same stuff but marketed by Goex.  With Pyrodex you need BP compatible lube, you don't with Pinnacle and the other subs.

[Silver_Rings]

Its my understanding you should never store powder, black or smokeless, in metal containers.  The reason being if it were to explode the metal container would become very dangerous shrapnel.  Light weigh plastic or paper containers are used because the schrapnet they would produce is less dangerous.

SR

[John Barleycorn]

I have to agree on the storage, NO metal ammo cans! I use a wood box with an hinged but not latched top if there is and explosion the gasses take the path of least resistance and blow the top off rather than making in essence a grenade.

[Pettifogger]

Cabelas BATF compliant powder magazine is metal.  http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0012533213975a&type=product&cmCat=Search_Results_NYR&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&QueryText=black+powder+storage&N=4887&Ntk=Products&Ntx=mode+matchall&Nty=1&Ntt=black+powder+storage&noImage=0

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Cabelas BATF compliant powder magazine is metal.  http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0012533213975a&type=product&cmCat=Search_Results_NYR&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&QueryText=black+powder+storage&N=4887&Ntk=Products&Ntx=mode+matchall&Nty=1&Ntt=black+powder+storage&noImage=0

And the seams are made to blow.  Ammo cans aren't, pard.  Don't mean to pick on ya, P-fogger ... Ammo cans are GREAT storage for ammo and other things that need to stay sealed.   Just don't put BP in 'em.

[Fingers McGee]

What Pettifogger said.

I'm an old muzzleloader that tried and ruled out Pyrodex years ago.  Never liked it  - wont use it.  My pistols are C&B revolvers that only use Goex.  Never tried a sub in them (guess i really should to try to simplify things though ).  For my rifles I like Pinnacle -  it may be a little dusty; but, it meters a whole lot better than APP and is cheaper  and milder than 777 .  Clean-up is comparable to both.  Have gone 10 stages with no loss of accuracy in 44-40 '73 short rifle using Desperado bullets.  For shotgun shells, I use the cheapest stuff I can get.  Right now using some ffg APP and ffg Goex that was given to me  .  Generally use the ffg APP in shotgun shells cause i can get it cheaper than the rest of the subs. 

The container that Cabelas has is an ATF approved powder magazine.  I use on to store all my powder.

[John Barleycorn]

I maybe a little off subject but my local Wal-mart is selling off some Hodgdon stocks, Pyrodex RS $11 a pound, and 777 FF $15 a pound.  Is this a good price? Should I stock up? Thanks JB