Acceptable accuracy for black powder guns

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Pards,

Ya don't have to post to vote.  Please vote.

My standards are very high because I sell bullet molds for each SASS black powder Big Lube™ bullet design.  Using the kind of guns and sights that will be used for the kind of shooting they were intended for, I set my moa (minute of angle) standards to Option 1.  All Big Lube™ designs must be capable of shooting as good as Option 1 and all are tested to that standard.  I use a very good rest, low wind conditions and as near to 70 degree F temperatures as I can get when I fire my test batches.  Also, I record each load component data and chronograph each test.

However, in the real world standards and conditions vary.  Sometimes it's the shooter's eyes, sometimes the guns, sometimes the ammo, sometimes the weather and sometimes it's all or any of the above.  So, what are your acceptable accuracy standards for your own SASS shooting ammo and guns?

I'm not looking for a lot of bragging here, just what pards actually shoot.

DD-DLoS

Fifth option added.  Vote yer preference.

[Grapeshot]

I agree with DD.  If the bullet design is sound, and it performs well with smokeless than if should perform equally well with Black Powder.  I know the arguement about comparing Smokeless to Black Powder, but most of our bullet designs came out of the BP era and were found to work well with the new Nitro- based powders.

If a bullet design carries a lot of lubricant, keeps the powder fouling soft and sprays enough out of the cylinder gap to keep a revolver running for 50 or so rounds, then, the bullet should be as accurate as any other well designed bullet that is fired from that gun so long as it is the right diameter for the caliber. 

Ditto for rifle bullets.  I remember reading about the old timers shooting long distances with their false muzzle equipped target rifles that would turn some of our modern shooters green with envy if they could see the groups those guys were getting.  That kind of performance spilled over into the BP Cartridge Rifle shooting as well.

[hellgate]

My first acceptable CAS standard is "Will it feed reliably in both my lever rifles?" By adjusting OAL til I find the sweet spot of reliable function THEN I work up the accuracy angle with various charges & compression. I fully intended, yearned, & wished to use the snakebite bullet in my guns ('92 Rossis) but it would occasionally hang up with rapid cycling of the guns so I had to abandon the idea for myself. It is a great bullet and probably works superbly in '73s, '66s, and Marlins but I am too cheap to buy two more rifles.
As for acceptable accuracy, I'll take any bullet that feeds well and will go into 2"@50yds. If I carefully grade my castings, use a sandbag rest, etc I can usually get 1.5" groups @ 50yds so I am happy with what I have.

[Dick Dastardly]

Hellgate and Grapeshot,

You make great points.  The trick in designing bullets is to make them as user friendly as possible.  Yes, there are some little wrinkles in the design envelope that might lead to superb accuracy in a few guns.  Big Lube™ bullets were designed from the git go to meet SAAMI OAL standards, function in a whole spectrum of guns and be accurate in most.

The Snakebite works GREAT in my Browning 92.  I load it in 38 Special brass only.  The resulting OAL is that of a factory .357 Magnum round.  I've found that with 92s there can be an issue with the RIGHT side rail.  The cure is to shim it out till cartridge clearance is around Five Thousandths.  Marauder put me on to this.  Properly done, it cures stovepiping.  92s love to stovepipe, get a round under the lifter and then grin at you and say, "yer done till ya clear me". . .

One thing that I've found true is that the Big Lube™ bullets are a mite less fussy about alloy as long as isn't much harder than ww metal.  I like that because I can make main match ingots from a lot of found metal.  I run a hardness test on the ingots and grade them from "Dead Soft" to "Hard Cast". .

The hard cast stuff is used for some of my higher velocity heathen fad smokeyless loads.  Good hide quality with two little holes. . .

DD-DLoS

[Cohagen]

I dunno Dick, I dropped a nice 2 year old buff at 135 yds. with a 535 grain hunk of lead, one shot.  Accurate enough for me.
The 2" inch group at 50 is what i try to achieve with my 45/70 loads.  I can do slightly better with the 38/55.

Cohagen  ( Yep, I'm braggin about the Buff)

[Wills Point Pete]

 Well, Dick I CAN load to that first group, I hardly ever do though.In order to get those groups I have to work too long in the loading.
My '92 clone will shoot 2-3 inch groups at a hundred, off the bench, if I use a long drop tube and a compression die and the 250 grain bullets are plus or minus .75 grain, and I use my homemade compression die as well as a fiber wad under the bullet. Thing is the groups only open up one or two inches when I just load bullets cast with reasonable care and load with a sixteenth or more compression. And since everybody at a match complains when I drag that big ol' concrete bench and sandbags up to the line...

I will say that my best handloads in that rifle are just as tight as the best ones with the Hornady XTPs and smokeless, they just take longer to get there.

[Dick Dastardly]

Good shootn' Cohagen.  Save a taste of buffler for "Hang Um High".  You proved that yer rounds are "dead buffler" accurate and that brought home the bacon (buffler).  Congratulations!

Ho Pete,  I suspect you are doing exactly what a LOT of shooters are.  Lab results are one thing.  Practical results, another.  The only reason for Option One is that there are pards that can and do suffer long and hard to get that last n-th degree out of their loads.  I only do it when proving a design.  My own match ammo is "One Minute of Steel" .  I only want my ammo more accurate than I can shoot offhand for SASS matches.  Then, any misses are my own and I can't fall back on the "bad ammo" excuse.  Besides, I've got enuf others as it is.

Keep 'em coming.

DD-DLoS

[Montana Slim]

Whoa!
SUB MOA, 2 MOA, 4 MOA....we're talking about cowboy guns here, right?
Everyone knows what MOA is......right?

Slim

[Adirondack Jack]

I try to get em as good as possible.  Offhand at 25 yards, a CAS rifle ought to do an inch or a little over.  Pistols offhand at 12 yards into an inch or so.  This presumes some human error and a load doing quite a bit better than that.  Once achieved, such loads leave me room on the plate for poorly aligned sights when shooting at speed, and room in the loading process for slight variations that won't blow the accuracy all to hell.

[Col. Cornelius Gilliam]

Howdy,

Looking at the voting results, I'm not sure some people are familiar with MOA.

I voted as follows, but only because there wasn't something bigger:

BPCR        1MOA (2" ten shot group at 200 yrds) - This level of accuracy is required to be competitive
CAS Rifle   4MOA (2"ten shot group at 50 yrds) - I 'm very happy with 2 3/4" to 3" at this range out of a CAS rifle
CAS Pistol  8MOA (2" ten shot group at 25 yrds) - I'm very happy with 2 1/2" to 3" at this range out of a CAS pistol

[Dick Dastardly]

Thanks Col,

You have a grasp.  There's a long way and a big difference between the ransom rest, concrete bench and ideal weather and offhand shooting at a match.  Even cross sticks can't make up the difference.

Lab results are only meant to predict the potential of a design.  Actual results are what happens when it's raining, the wind is blowing and the targets get back lit.

Thanks for posting.

DD-DLoS

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy!

I went ahead and answered the poll, but I don't know if I'll ever experience "acceptable accuracy" (ANY level) with my Sharps and BP.  Now, a man's gotta know his limits, so I have to be honest with myself.  Back when I was shooting regularly (you know - PRACTICING!) I was never a match or bullseye shooter - on paper.  (I'm talkin' small arms here, not my former profession as Master Gunner  )  If you put me in a nice comfortable situation with a bench and everything all set up nice, well, I did OK, but not great.  Now, change that to a "combat" situation with all its limitations and I could do durn well; what DD called "dead buffler" accurate, or what I called "killin' accurate."  I PRACTICED more at this.  I felt (and still feel) that in my business, this is what was needed.  State of mind, ya know.  (Lots of you have experienced this - I KNOW you understand.)

Anyhoo, I was OK at target shooting, but not great.  Fast forward to civilian life and Cowboy shooting - and falling in love with Big-Bore BP rifles.  I bought a Sharps repro and 3 boxes of factory jacketed ammo so I could have something to shoot, and could then reload the cases with a good lead bullet and BP.  I got, for ME - pretty good accuracy (2-3 MOA with a new rifle and ammo) with that Remington factory ammo.  I purchased some quality hard-cast 405 gr. bullets lubed with SPG and Goex Cartridge to send 'em downrange.  I've been TRYING since that time nearly 7 years ago to repeat the accuracy I got the first time I shot!  First, I had to learn that basically, hard-cast bullets, no matter whether they're high-grade and lubed with SPG, and BP simply don't mix!  OK, I try some of the common solutions, then finally get hooked up with some PROPER Montana Precision SOFT lead bullets and things improve drastically.  Stiill not as good as those first Jacketed, Heathen Smokeyless Factory rounds, but at least it was a big improvement.  This prompts me to try casting and I get a Lyman mould, # 457132 which throws (to me) an identical 535 gr slug as those Montana bullets.  Friends, I've been TRYING for nearly 2 years now to get a GOOD, consistent bullet that is within 2 grs of each other!  I have NO trouble with my PRS 45 cal. BigLube (tm) boolit mould gettin' good results! ? ? ? ? ? ? ?  However, IF   I could cast some consistent bullets, with that big slug I'd be ecstatic  to get 9 or 10  MOA at 100 yds.!!!

Now I know, the amount of practice I have available has a LOT to do with things.  Also, I'm pretty much a crowd of one when it comes to learnin' casting, since I have NO ONE who can actually come to me and whomp me on the haid when I do something wrong at the casting table!  That's whut I need - someone who'll come spend hours with me - hand in hand (so to speak  ) 'til I git it right.  Any volunteers?    Yeah - I know ... I've gotten some pretty durn good shooters given' me advice (thanks again Silver Creek Slim, DD, Delmonico, and GW - and others) but I learn better by example, but not over the phone, so to speak! 


Well, that's a longwinded tale, but true ... as to WHY I voted like I did.  (1 MOA - 2nd choice)  In truth, I'd be quite happy with 4 MOA, but Dick ... you didn't include MOA that pitiful   in yer poll!     



PS - I still have some of those high-grade hard-cast bullets, and IF I load 'em in front of about 29-30 grs of (IMR) 4198, they shoot purty good - but it aint right (to ME) NOT usin' BP!!! 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

All I care is that when I lay the front sight of my Main Match rifles or pistols I hit the target. I don't give a hoot about minute of anything. With my Sharps, I can usually barely see the target. I can't see the target clearly enough to really know if my sight picture is identical each time or not. If I can hit a target at 300 yards, I'm happy.

[Pettifogger]

For my CAS main match guns its minute of pie plate.  Anything more than 100 yards away I can't see, so its irrelevant.

[Arcey]

Heck, I dunno.

Werkin' up the last pistol load, used a spray paint can cap as a stencil onna steel target. Put all five in it. Guess that was about ten yards. Good 'nuff.

Rifle, don't remember. Think I've missed one rifle in the last three shoots. My fault, speed kills, but there's only one other way better ta go 'n ya don't wanna do that fast.

Some fool thought it would be a hoot ta put a rifle target way out there not too long ago. Aimed dead at it 'n got it. Matter ah fact, all us Darksiders did. It was the fad powder folks what missed.   

[Lucky Irish Tom]

Dick,

I haven't gotten as technical as what you are doing.  Pretty much fer Cowboy Shooting if my loads go BOOM, CLANG and make a lot of smoke I am satisfied.  My last match I was shooting a .45 250 gr over a case load of GOEX 2F.  Out of my Remington Conversions, 8" barrels, I was dead on POA.  I switched halfway through the match to a Ruger Bisley Vaquero 5 1/2" barrel and A little birdshead grip clone with a 3 1/2" inch barrel and they were shooting about a foot low with the same load , I don't know who laughed harder, me or the spotters.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Greetings again!

I didn't mention, 'cause I was talking ONLY about my Sharps B4 (before  ), but I seem to be in the majority here: If the CAS pistol and rifle go BANG, then I hear a clang and lots of smoke is hangin' around, I'm happy.  When I have put the guns to paper, if I can put 'em in the black (or close) with the pistol to 25-35 ft and the same with the rifle from 50-75 ft. well, I figger that's good enough for me.  I have other guns that I worry about numbers with, like my Python, Supermatic Citation, Garand and 98K - you know, numbers like 9s and 10s and sometimes even parts of the alphabet, like 10X ... I'm REAL happy when I see those! 

[hellgate]

(un)Lucky Irish,
I suspect that two factors were in play. The shape of the bird'shead grip may help limit barrel flip as held and the shorter travel time for the bullet going through a shorter barrel did not allow as much upward movement. A lighter bullet will do the same thing: it's out the barrel before much movement happens since they are traveling a little faster.

[Arcey]

Ya mean sumthin' like this, Steel Hoss?

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Ya mean sumthin' like this, Steel Hoss?

YES!  Good group, pard!

I can shoot groups like that ...

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At 5 feet!   

Never shot one of them long-slider Glock target versions, Arcey.  Between you and it, SOMETHING is workin' right!!!  (And I know where MY money would go    )