Let's Start a List: Chaparral and Uberti Production Problems

[OKDEE]

Well, I got my Chaparral 1876 22" barrelled, 45-75 caliber lever rifle back from Charter Arms.  I had sent in on November 25, 2007 to be fixed due to a chambering problem and an ignition problem.   I sent with the rifle 4 brass,  2 in the 45-75 brass that I had from TEN_X, and 2 from my stash (Thanks GRIZ!) of reformed 348 brass.  I called about every 10days and checked on any status.  They shipped it out on January the 3rd, 2008.  I received it     and a Customer Service Repair Order form, which was filled in my my name and address and my rifle spec's.  The corrective action area was filled in with - New Mainspring, Bolt and F. Pin, Champhered Chamber, Funct + Fired  OK.

I tested the loading and chambering of my rounds and that seemed to be pretty well fixed    .  I headed to the range and settled in at the 25 yard target bench.  Loaded one round in and levered her in (no problem) and pulled that trigger and .....click the hammer rang home.....nothing, no ignition     .   I recocked the hammer and Blam!  Center hit on the high side.  Out of 14 rounds, 3 rounds fired the first time.  Not good!

Soooo, the final results are ... out of two problems, Charter Arms fixed one, the chambering problem.  The other problem of ignition is still present.  I am a bit bummed and deflated.

I am wondering if it could be that the ignition problem is in my reloading.  I have not had any problems in reloading my 45-70 Trapdoor rounds, they all go off.  So I feel that is ruled out.

I guess I will call on Monday and talk with Charter Arms and see what we can do.

Puzzled in Houston,

Oklahoma Dee

[Crotchety Old Grouch]

Okdee,  Sorry ta hear bout your trouble.  Have you checked the head space with the rounds that miss fired and the ones that fired?

[Hoof Hearted]

Dee

Check to be sure that the extractor fits correctly in the groove in the barrel. I have seen many of these Chaparral rifles with this problem. What happens is the extractor rides up over the rim and then holds the case slightly out of the chamber. This combined with their inherent (too much) head space issues causes the case to move when the firing pin strikes the primer. This in turn absorbs enough force (kinda like a primer not fully seated, but worse) to not detonate the primer. This is probably why your firing pin strike is high as the extractor is on the top lifting the case ever so slightly.

Sucks to have to do your own R&D and fixing on such a big investment, huh
I wonder how much Nick Ecker pays these unquailifed "gun parts changers"

[larryo_1]

   I had the same sort of experience with a Chaparral that I had gotten this past summer and after lots of problems, I went and got a Cimmeron.  I told Grizzley Adams about my problems and he symphazied with me.  Can't say that I have too many kind words about Chapparal arms but as I said earlier, it all boils down to damn poor Quality Control both here and in Italy.  There are alot of folks out there that have these firearms and love them so maybe it is hit and miss?  I know that my Cimmeron is a great rifle and seems to get smoother every time that it is fired.  I did redo the stock to an oil finish and that is one point that Uberti could increase their sales on-that is-that they would offer an oil finish rather than the finish that is on their rifles which is too prone to scratching.

[OKDEE]

COG,  I kinda figured that would be the main issue with the ignition problem that I reported to Charter Arms about.  They changed out the bolt and firing pin, and so I figured that they would definitely verify the headspace with the new bolt.  Maybe not.    I will check it, though.

Thanks

Oklahoma Dee

[OKDEE]

Hello Hoof Hearted,

I can definetly see what you are referring to!     Okay, that seems to be sympton that I have with this rifle.  What are my options?  Trim a few thousandths off the bottom of the extractor claw?  Take a dremel tool to the barrel lip that the extractor slips up on?  What have you done, that gives you success with these situations?

Thanks

Oklahoma Dee

[Hoof Hearted]

Hello Hoof Hearted,

I can definetly see what you are referring to!     Okay, that seems to be sympton that I have with this rifle.  What are my options?  Trim a few thousandths off the bottom of the extractor claw?  Take a dremel tool to the barrel lip that the extractor slips up on?  What have you done, that gives you success with these situations?

Thanks

Oklahoma Dee

Dee

Before you start and for your own info and the thread's, take some feeler gauges and check the headspace on your rifle. Go between the bolt face and the back of a deprimed fired case. Then check it again after modification. I think the "parts changers" at Charter are either going by feel or not checking them at all.

I would (with a dremel) deepen, or alter the barrel first. But go slow here it is much harder to put metal back!
If I remember right, I have also had to slightly deepen the "hook" on the extractor. Originally the brass for these rifles had a bevel on the face and the current brass is slghtly thicker where the extractor slips over it. Also larger diameter rims will cause the extractor to lift up more, creating interference with the top of the extractor. You'll see if you really look at how this design works.

Good luck and if you need more help, I'm here

[Grizzly Adams]

Hello Hoof Hearted,

I can definetly see what you are referring to!     Okay, that seems to be sympton that I have with this rifle.  What are my options?  Trim a few thousandths off the bottom of the extractor claw?  Take a dremel tool to the barrel lip that the extractor slips up on?  What have you done, that gives you success with these situations?

Thanks

Oklahoma Dee

I think I would start with the least expensive part - the extractor - and see if that helps.  But, I am not a gunsmith, so I will defer to HH on this one.

[Hoof Hearted]

I think I would start with the least expensive part - the extractor - and see if that helps.  But, I am not a gunsmith, so I will defer to HH on this one.

GA

Normally your line of thinking would be the most prudent
But the extractor's job would be deminished by removing material where the interference is in the barrel. If you make any alterations to it, do so in mind that it still has to be reasonably strong and must still grip the rim in such a way as to be able to do it's job.

Many of you have rifles that show off center firing pin strikes. The bolt is sticking out there a mile on this design, unsupported
Any interference as it locks up, will deflect it from center.

Correctly "set up" a toggle link should have the feel of "snapping" closed, crisp and it should feel "smart".

[Grizzly Adams]

GA

Normally your line of thinking would be the most prudent
But the extractor's job would be deminished by removing material where the interference is in the barrel. If you make any alterations to it, do so in mind that it still has to be reasonably strong and must still grip the rim in such a way as to be able to do it's job.

Many of you have rifles that show off center firing pin strikes. The bolt is sticking out there a mile on this design, unsupported
Any interference as it locks up, will deflect it from center.

Correctly "set up" a toggle link should have the feel of "snapping" closed, crisp and it should feel "smart".

Thanks, HH.

This problem with headspace and off center firing pin strikes has plagued many of the Chaparrals from the git go.  In reviewing this thread, it is abundantly clear that many folks, John Boy in particular, have had eye to eye discussion with the decision makers about this problem.  Certainly enough feedback has been provided to see corrective measures taken at this point.

Another thing that is clear from this thread is that some folks have received guns with NO problems of this kind.  I wonder if that indicates some improvement beginning with certain serial numbers?

GA 

[OKDEE]

Hey HH!  Thanks for the info.  I have some more info.

Upon closer scrunity (?) inspection maybe a better word   ,  I found this to be true on my rifle.

1.  Fully lever the rifle open.  Your bolt is back and the carrier block is up.

2.  Taking a light and peering down where the bolt and the carrier block will come to together.

3.  My bolt is below the carrier block!  Probably a sixteenth of an inch, lower.  I can see the brass markings on the face of the bolt.  In order for me to lever the round forward into the chamber.  I have to force the bolt to popup over the lip of the carrier block.  , upward onto the carrier block, before the round will move forward.  While I close the lever and drive the bolt forward, I can feel and see the bolt grinding along the surface of the carrier block as it moves forward into the it final location.  
NOT GOOD!

4.  From this I arrive at a couple of conclusions.  

5.   The carrier block is not correctly milled for this rifle, or maybe for any rifle for that matter.  It is not cut or milled deep enough to allow the bolt to smoothly slide forward.  When the bolt is popped up and on top of the carrier block, in order to move the round forward......the bolt is actually elevated or raised out of line with the barrel.  ( I hope )

OR !!!! Could it be that the lever action forward to open it, somewhere the lever is incorrectly milled and is setting the carrier block to high?

In either case,  when the round iand bolt are locked into the chamber , it is out of alignment.

CONCLUSION???  This maybe causing the high primer hits and ignition problems i experience.  Due to the bolt being high in relation to the barrell.  Or out of alignment.  

PATH FORWARD???  
1.  Take a dremel tool and deepen the carrier block to where the bolt does not have to rampup or popup onto it.  
2.  Send it back to Charter Arms, explains my findings and requesting correction?  This could take a month or more.  Heck, will Charter Arms, in light of the problems, be around to fix and return it to me?
3.  Your thoughts???

Hopeful in Houston,  
Oklahoma Dee

[Hoof Hearted]

Thanks, HH.

This problem with headspace and off center firing pin strikes has plagued many of the Chaparrals from the git go.  In reviewing this thread, it is abundantly clear that many folks, John Boy in particular, have had eye to eye discussion with the decision makers about this problem.  Certainly enough feedback has been provided to see corrective measures taken at this point.

Another thing that is clear from this thread is that some folks have received guns with NO problems of this kind.  I wonder if that indicates some improvement beginning with certain serial numbers?

GA 

GA

Certainly the factory has taken some of this input from our "guinea piggin" to heart and tried to rectify some problems.
But why have they not tried to get the word out to the owners of the "problem" guns? You know damn good and well that they are aware of this thread. I have heard of bad toggle pins (actually could be a very dangerous situation), missing "cartridge lip" on bolt, and on and on.

If Nick at Charter gave a HOOT he would get on here acting as their agent. I truly after my problems with him feel he is very disingenuous to say the least

The fact that this does not happen PROVES that they EXPECT us to be THEIR GUINEA PIGS.

As to the matter of some good guns some bad, well, some men are chubby chasers
But really, these rifles are not hand fitted, in the old way (as their gunsmiths are not trained in the old ways) so tolerance issues in manufacturing can "stack" either way, to the good or the bad. This is why Uberti modified a number of items in the toggle link design. With their re-engineering of the links and other parts they were able to eliminate the need for hand fitting. Chaparral chose to stick with the original design and let us weed out the problems!

[Hoof Hearted]

Hey HH!  Thanks for the info.  I have some more info.

Upon closer scrunity (?) inspection maybe a better word   ,  I found this to be true on my rifle.

1.  Fully lever the rifle open.  Your bolt is back and the carrier block is up.

2.  Taking a light and peering down where the bolt and the carrier block will come to together.

3.  My bolt is below the carrier block!  Probably a sixteenth of an inch, lower.  I can see the brass markings on the face of the bolt.  In order for me to lever the round forward into the chamber.  I have to force the bolt to popup over the lip of the carrier block.  , upward onto the carrier block, before the round will move forward.  While I close the lever and drive the bolt forward, I can feel and see the bolt grinding along the surface of the carrier block as it moves forward into the it final location.  
NOT GOOD!

4.  From this I arrive at a couple of conclusions.  

5.   The carrier block is not correctly milled for this rifle, or maybe for any rifle for that matter.  It is not cut or milled deep enough to allow the bolt to smoothly slide forward.  When the bolt is popped up and on top of the carrier block, in order to move the round forward......the bolt is actually elevated or raised out of line with the barrel.  ( I hope )

OR !!!! Could it be that the lever action forward to open it, somewhere the lever is incorrectly milled and is setting the carrier block to high?

In either case,  when the round iand bolt are locked into the chamber , it is out of alignment.

CONCLUSION???  This maybe causing the high primer hits and ignition problems i experience.  Due to the bolt being high in relation to the barrell.  Or out of alignment.  

PATH FORWARD???  
1.  Take a dremel tool and deepen the carrier block to where the bolt does not have to rampup or popup onto it.  
2.  Send it back to Charter Arms, explains my findings and requesting correction?  This could take a month or more.  Heck, will Charter Arms, in light of the problems, be around to fix and return it to me?
3.  Your thoughts???

Hopeful in Houston,  
Oklahoma Dee

Dee

Sorry I missed this post earlier!

This is getting pretty indepth. Email me directly and we'll talk. My address is in my signature line.

[Grizzly Adams]

Hey HH!  Thanks for the info.  I have some more info.

Upon closer scrunity (?) inspection maybe a better word   ,  I found this to be true on my rifle.

1.  Fully lever the rifle open.  Your bolt is back and the carrier block is up.

2.  Taking a light and peering down where the bolt and the carrier block will come to together.

3.  My bolt is below the carrier block!  Probably a sixteenth of an inch, lower.  I can see the brass markings on the face of the bolt.  In order for me to lever the round forward into the chamber.  I have to force the bolt to popup over the lip of the carrier block.  , upward onto the carrier block, before the round will move forward.  While I close the lever and drive the bolt forward, I can feel  ???and see the bolt grinding along the surface of the carrier block as it moves forward into the it final location. 
NOT GOOD!

4.  From this I arrive at a couple of conclusions. 

5.   The carrier block is not correctly milled for this rifle, or maybe for any rifle for that matter.  It is not cut or milled deep enough to allow the bolt to smoothly slide forward.  When the bolt is popped up and on top of the carrier block, in order to move the round forward......the bolt is actually elevated or raised out of line with the barrel.  ( I hope )

OR !!!! Could it be that the lever action forward to open it, somewhere the lever is incorrectly milled and is setting the carrier block to high?

In either case,  when the round iand bolt are locked into the chamber , it is out of alignment.

CONCLUSION???  This maybe causing the high primer hits and ignition problems i experience.  Due to the bolt being high in relation to the barrell.  Or out of alignment. 

PATH FORWARD??? 
1.  Take a dremel tool and deepen the carrier block to where the bolt does not have to rampup or popup onto it. 
2.  Send it back to Charter Arms, explains my findings and requesting correction?  This could take a month or more.  Heck, will Charter Arms, in light of the problems, be around to fix and return it to me?
3.  Your thoughts???

Hopeful in Houston, 
Oklahoma Dee

I had a similar problem once with a 73.  It was in the carrier arm.  I had to remove material from the carrier where it contacts the lever in order to get the timing correct.   

With all of the issues you have described, I think I would be inclined to send it back to Chaparral.   I would not give them any excuse to void your warranty.  

  In any case,  I hope you get it worked out.  Keep us posted, Dee.

[OKDEE]

With all of the issues you have described, I think I would be inclined to send it back to Chaparral.   I would not give them any excuse to void your warranty.  

  In any case,  I hope you get it worked out.  Keep us posted, Dee.

Hey Griz,  I'm thinkin I am gona just wing this on my own, or work with my gunsmith here in Houston.  I pulled the 76 apart and found a poor attempt, by someone at Charter, trying to get the bolt to push downward.  At lest that is what it appears to me.  I am okay with working it on my own time and testing this an that to see what can improve it.  The fit and finish on my rifle is very good.  I figure in time she will be a very good rifle.

[Grizzly Adams]

Hey Griz,  I'm thinkin I am gona just wing this on my own, or work with my gunsmith here in Houston.  I pulled the 76 apart and found a poor attempt, by someone at Charter, trying to get the bolt to push downward.  At lest that is what it appears to me.  I am okay with working it on my own time and testing this an that to see what can improve it.  The fit and finish on my rifle is very good.  I figure in time she will be a very good rifle.

Sounds like a plan, Dee.  Hope you get it squared away soon.  Good luck, and keep us posted as to what work you had to do, and the issue involved.

[cat1870]

My Taylor/Uberti .45-60 had a bad crown.  The average 50yd groups were better than 6".  This from a bench rest. 
There was a dimple in the crown that had to have been there before it was blued as the blue was still inside the dimple.
I sent it back to Taylors & they made an attempt to fix it.
It did shoot better when it was returned but still not good enough & the dimple was still there.
I then sent it to John King of Montana who properly pulled the barrel & crowned it properly then returned it promptly.
The rifle now will shoot 1 inch groups at 75 yards when I do my part.

I can't say that I'm very happy with Taylor's gunsmithing services.  This was an easy, no brainer fix & they were  too lazy to do the job proberly.
I cost me $100.00 to get this fixed.   I can't say enough about John King's services.  He was great to work with & knows what he's doing.

[bfaubion]

I purchased a Chaparral 1876 in .40-60 about a year ago and it was fine out of the box - no problems what so ever.  I've since purchased a Cimarron 1876 in .45-75 and it is fine also.  I have a Cimarron 1873 in .44-40 that I've fired 1000's of rounds thru.  The only thing I've had to do is replace the extractor after 12 years of Cowboy Action shooting .  I did have a problem with another Cimarron (Uberti) 1873 in .32-20.  The nose cap screw was drilled thru the magazine tube and wouldn't allow more than about 5 rounds to be loaded.  This was easily fixed.  I also had a problem with a Cimarron Lightning pistol.  The firing pin was too short.  It would misfire about once out of 5 rounds.  I sent it back and they fixed it.  Now this is the best shooting revolver I have.  I also am still shooting a Cimarron SSA 1873 that I've used for over 20 years in Cowboy Action shooting.  I've replaced the firing pin and the cylinder stop/trigger spring.  I also installed lighter mainspring.  Although I've had some problems with Cimarron (Uberti) firearms, I still think they are excellent quality firearms and would not hesitate to order another one.  I have only on Chaparral firearm, but It also seems to be excellent quality. 

[Yance]

I ordered 5 Chapparals at the same time in 45-75 (small group of us HAD to have them).
3 of the 5 had magazine tubes fly off in the 1st 10 rounds shot.
One would not even lever open. It had a hammer spur bent so bad that it hit the receiver tang.
One had a split forend.
One cracked the stock at the tang in less than a week.
The sights were terrible (front crooked and miss-shapen, rears as described by others in this poll).
One had a chamber cut so deeply that the fired case opened up to over 50 caliber at the throat upon firing.]
One had over 25 thousandths head space and would not fire.
I can keep going but you'll think I work for Uberti

Howdy;

When first forming cases for a friend's Chaparral .45-75 I was concerned about a "ring" around the case about .125" below the bottom of the shoulder.  I was further concerned when I tried forming a longer case using a Bullseye and cornmeal load that allowed a little of the extra long case to expand into the actual bore hoping to be able to make true "full length" cases/

I only tried that with one case, since the reformed .348 Win case still had an "hourglass" appearance where the lower part was too tough to expand with that small amount of pressure.  I really didn't like what I saw at the case mouth. I had formed unevenly, looking like it had been cut on an angle, and one side showed the beginning of the rifleing lands while the other didn't.

Decided to get some Cerrosafe and make a chamber cast.  This is what I found!    http://tinyurl.com/34mba9

You can see the dark ring below the bottom of the shoulder in a few of the shots.  That's a .007" "jump", caused IMO by a chip getting caught on one of the reamer flutes.   

At the case mouth area you can see that there is a very pronounced leade into the rifleing on one side and just the beginnings of the mouth cut opposite that.  To top it off, the mouth area of the chamber is .007" LARGER than the bottom of the neck.  Seems to me like at least the ring from the reamer wobble would have showed up with only the use of the No 1 Mk 1 Optical Comapritor, (i.e., the Ol' Eyeball) before the barrel was screwed into the receiver.  Rifle is now sitting at Charter Arms awaiting a new barrel.  Anybody have any idea of turnaround time?

So far the only other problems that have surfaced have been the mentioned forward movement of the magazine tube and that piece of junk they put on for a rear sight.

Hopefully the rifle will come back a "shooter" since that's a lOT of money to tie up in a "wallhanger".

Thanks for "listening".

Yance
Wonderful Western North Carolina

[Hoof Hearted]

Yance

Sorry to hear of your problems! If the SASS wire hadn't deleted every post that was written expressing these problems, I'm sure fewer people would have had to endure them

I purchased brass from "Charter 2000", it was their test fire brass and the circus involved with them actually getting me what was promised and when is a whole 'nother SAGA . But, I think I have some of the brass used to test fire the above mentioned rifle (or there are a lot more cut the same way)! I would say that 3 otta every 10 or so fired cases had been fired in some atrocious chamber. Believe me Quality Control was an OXYMORON with the rifles assembled there