Let's Start a List: Chaparral and Uberti Production Problems

[Hoof Hearted]

Carver

You are right on the money with Uberti. And Taylor's does stand behind the product.

BUT Chaparral went through a period where Charter assembled the rifles here in the US. The bottom line is those rifles were hands on with Charters employees and their work SUCKED! Then they just shipped them anyway. If John Boy is correct in his statements above then I am right when I say we were either GUINEA PIGS or worse!

It's pretty sad that the "tri-wood" Italy assembled guns and the "new" Italian ones now are 10 times better than the Charter guns

[Major 2]

I got to view Charter Arms display of Chaparral's at Shot Show 07 back in January...
The Charter Arms display was 40'X 60' island but the Chaparral's were displayed on two 4' Tables at the left rear of the island booth almost an after thought.
They did not seen to be to proud of them... the samples were not the best ... the so called enhanced wood on the 73's & 76's was some kind of light color hardwood stained then had painted grain effect and polyurethane finish... poor wood to metal fit...
I gave review on the SASS wire of what I saw , and a wag ( I later discovered was a Chaparral Dealer ) blasted me..
seem his excuse was the guns were "Show models " and as such had been handled and abused ....
That might explain looseness or worn parts ( which these gun did not have ) but it did NOT answer the poor fit & finish... Cheesy wood finish.... and gaps in wood to metal... at a NATIONAL SHOW were EVERYONE else was putting the best wares & foot forward....
The wag also pointed out the wood was being replaced by Walnut ,in future offerings & and early buyers could replace or retro fit the Cheesy enhanced wood (at a cost) if they wished.


They also showed a 73 Colt Clone & a Colt style SXS Hammered Shotgun.... The 73 Colt Clone only fair with the same Cheesy finish Grips.
The SXS however was quite nice , though I suspect it was TTN with Chaparral marks.

I took a bashing over on the SASS wire for stating my observations....




As to Uberti... I have had nothing but good service from mine ...and Ms. Susanne Webb @ Uberti in Gardone' was quite helpful at Customer Service...

1981 Henry
1981 Yellowboy

and Currently:
1995 Henry
2006 Henry Steel Frame
2005 Colt OT
2007 Remington Forged Frame Conversion

Numerous : 1860's , Navies , Remingtons , 73 Clones & SW's I've purchased as Film props

[Hoof Hearted]

Major2

I also was "raped and maimed" by that "WAG"
and his "fast" friend.........on the SASS wire.

I also had a telephone conversation with the head honcho at the SASS office and was told they were monitoring all of my posts and would not allow any further comments regarding Crapparal

They sure allo that "WAG" to continue to use their forum for profit though

[Major 2]

I have no doubt...Seems there are members and then there are MEMBERS
That is precisely why I won't post there anymore... .

[Grizzly Adams]

The poll todate has recieved only 8 votes, and seems to be becoming a "dog pile."   I do understand the frustration folks feel, but the place to address those issues is with the manufacture/importer.  There is little to be gained beyond venting.  All manufacturers producing any product will have issues - I know, I have bought a lot of guns, and they were not all as I expected!

I am asking that folks respond by voting, and if you have comments keep them constructive.  

I believe the feedback to the community, and to manufacturers is important.  However,  in all fairness, those folks are not here to defend themselves.

[Hoof Hearted]

Ok.........

For fear of repisal, I feel it's time to get off the "wags" and back onto a more informative and helpful line of talk here

I want to start by offering my help either via email, posts, or phone. I have a lot of years gunsmithing and although I probably will never know as much as some, I affected the necessary repairs on the five Chaparrals with the problems I mentioned farther up in this thread. If anyone comes on here and needs help or advise, don't hesitate to contact me. After 15 years of smithing I gave up my ffl but I have a near and dear friend with one (he builds custom flintlocks). I can help you with instruction and parts.

The Crapparal I kept was fortunately blessed with fair wood to metal fit. The headspace, bolt, firing pin, sights, mag tube, and whatever else I had problems with were all easy for me to correct. You can benefit from my experience and there are others who will chime in to help. My guess is there are a few hundred of these rifles floating around with either poor QC or some other form of ill "repair" by Charter.

[Grizzly Adams]

Ok.........

For fear of repisal, I feel it's time to get off the "wags" and back onto a more informative and helpful line of talk here

I want to start by offering my help either via email, posts, or phone. I have a lot of years gunsmithing and although I probably will never know as much as some, I affected the necessary repairs on the five Chaparrals with the problems I mentioned farther up in this thread. If anyone comes on here and needs help or advise, don't hesitate to contact me. After 15 years of smithing I gave up my ffl but I have a near and dear friend with one (he builds custom flintlocks). I can help you with instruction and parts.

The Chaparral I kept was fortunately blessed with fair wood to metal fit. The headspace, bolt, firing pin, sights, mag tube, and whatever else I had problems with were all easy for me to correct. You can benefit from my experience and there are others who will chime in to help. My guess is there are a few hundred of these rifles floating around with either poor QC or some other form of ill "repair" by Charter.

Your offer to help others benefit from your knowledge and experience is indeed constructive!

[john boy]

HH - I believe that these are the items that most folks have/had with their '76's:

• Missing cartridge support lip on the bolt base
• Excess head space
• Magazine tube moving past the muzzle

Would you tell the folks how you corrected these problems? 

[Hoof Hearted]

HH - I believe that these are the items that most folks have/had with their '76's:

• Missing cartridge support lip on the bolt base

This is a bit more than most will want to handle on their own and from what I have read Charter is replacing the bolts. It is not hard to TIG weld and grind/file a new one on (I do it all the time on orig 73's) but I have also noted that the lip does not have the proper curve on the rim side. Meaning it usually causes the bolt to force down upon closing on a case, causing "off-center" firing pin strikes (this magnifies as headspace decreases). If you look carefully you will see this happening. The cure is to carefully grind the "top" portion in a slight curve. Of course you have to remove the bolt to affect this repair.

• Excess head space

The BEST fix for this is new longer toggle links. I can't really describe how to fit or lengthen them here because of space, but I CAN help anyone personally via email. I like Winchester Bob's links and they worked perfectly with one small modification.[/color]

• Magazine tube moving past the muzzle

The easiest and most secure fix here is Silver Soldering the "ring" to the barrel and drilling the hole larger that the pin goes through, then making a larger pin. Two of the Five I fixed required the Silver Soldering as the dovetails cut in the barrel were terrible and the "ring" pulled off after the re-pinning.
Would you tell the folks how you corrected these problems? 

Another issue, though it is only cosmetic, that is easy to fix is the "hump" where the "heel" at the top of the buttplate meets the stock. This requires heating the buttplate and forging it flat and then proper inletting.

Most other issues in function are addressed the same as on 1873's.

Also I have heard of side plate problems like lack of proper lips and such, these need to be addressed on an individual basis.

I hope this helps!

[john boy]

Would you tell the folks how you corrected these problems?

HH - glad to contribute also ...

Missing lip on bolt base:  Because the lip is necessary to allow the ejector to firming grip the cartridge and keep the loaded round from 'rising' when going into battery ... I took pictures of a dozen spent cases that I indexed, showing the primer hits near and at the primer hole.  I sent them to Nick Ecker and Italy (Nicola and Angelo).  Swiss Oscar also penned a lengthy letter to Nick detailing that original rifles had lips and the purpose that Winchester put them on the bolts.  Ecker's email to Italy only contained one word ... HELP!  Charter Arms then sent us 4 new base bolts with the lips.

Excess head space:
When I drove up to Charter Arms and proved to them that there was 014 excess head space with an unfired 348 case (062 rim diameter) in the chamber and bolt in battery ... I was provided with the parts drawer that contained the toggle links.  I measured over 2 dozen and separated a couple that were 002 and 003" longer.  They came home with me.  Then I took each link and filed down the angles where the front and back link meet when fully extended.  This increased the length of the links when the bolt based went into battery.  In addition, the shoulders of the 348 reloads also took up head space and reduced the excess to zero with the bolt in battery and loaded cartridge in the chamber.

Magazine tube moving past the muzzle:
Is a Work In Process ... after two tries to use a larger pin through the tube ring.  Considered the silver solder approach but decided against it because the ring would be permanently attached to the barrel.

Two conditions exist that keep allowing the tube to extend past the muzzle -
1.  The elliptical dove tail on the barrel that holds the tube ring 
(a) Was cut too deep allowing 014 gap between the barrel and the base of the ring
(b) Was cut too long.  Before bluing, I believe the barrel sub contractor, put 3 punch marks on each dove tail 'ear' to force the ears down - to try to allow the ring to stay in place.

So, I'll pick up the tube ring this week.  It will have a bead of TIG weld on each 'wing' of the ring.  I'll mill the bead down so when it goes into the barrel dove tail there will be zero excess gap

2.  The lip of magazine plug presently doesn't fit tightly into the slot cut.  So a new plug with a longer ear with be made using my friend's (Swiss Oscar) lathe.  Then with the tube in place and the ring properly seated to the barrel, the plug will be custom fitted into the slot cut so it is absolutely tight.  A 6/32 thread screw through a half moon cut on top of the magazine tube will be tapped into the ring base to hold the ring/tube tension.  What Italy did before they shipped the rifle I received didn't work.  They applied cold solder to the plug and barrel to try and hold everything together 'tightly'! 

The incorrectly indexed barrel that was fitted to the receiver on mine - causing the excess head space ... is postponed because the rifle shoots great groups.  I have an agreement with Charter Arms.  If the head space starts to 'grow' after the rifle loosens up ... they will replace the whole rifle under warranty

I heard also about the side plate problem, specifically the right one with the loading gate.  This was a problem with the xxx digit serial number rifles and has since been corrected.  It can be replaced by Charter Arms under warranty 

Misfires are another known issue.  Using cartridges with a 057 rim diameter and excess head space are the contributors.  I understand the Chaparral Arms in Italy now has GO-NO GO gauges, presumed on a case with a 062 rim diameter.  Would be interesting to know the serial numbers that don't have a problem with head space ... indicating that the gauges are being used before the rifles are shipped

[Hoof Hearted]

John Boy

The "lip" on the lower face of the bolt (the "replacements" I have seen) will leave a heavy impression on the edge of the case rim (often miss-interpreted as an extractor or ejector mark) if the rifle in question has minimum headspace. This is why I explained the fix the way I did in the post above. It would be "correct" like it is if the case rim was tapered like the original balloon head cases were. When you say, "there was 014 excess head space with an unfired 348 case (062 rim diameter) in the chamber" you mean rim thickness right?

I have seen one other barrel that was peened that way. But there is no control evident in the size or shape of that dovetail from rifle to rifle. It also should be tapered.

Silver soldering only makes the magazine ring "semi-permanent" as it can be heated the same way to remove. My heli arc skills are pretty good and I can't build up that ring in that area with any hope that it will be appealing afterward The solder approach (done correctly) is darn near invisable and has no real effects on the bluing.

[john boy]

you mean rim thickness right?

HH - Correct

[Hoof Hearted]

If your fired case looks like the one on the left instead of looking like the one on the right, send the rifle back to Chaparral

[kurt250]

has chapperal started to offer replacement wood for walnut on the early 76's yet? i never really liked that weard wood the first came out with. kurt250

[Hoof Hearted]

has chapperal started to offer replacement wood for walnut on the early 76's yet? i never really liked that weard wood the first came out with. kurt250

Kurt

I have read a number of posts on other forums where gents say that the wood under the faux finish (triwood) is the same wood as the newer (non triwood) guns. It appears an easy process to strip and refinish

[Grapeshot]

Let's Start a List:
Was your Chaparral or Uberti '76 Winchester slick as a whistle - Out of the Box ... or was there problems with it? 

I bought the Chaparral.  To begin with let me state that Charter Arms took care of all the problems I had.
(1):  The Receiver Tang was stamped Model of 1866
(2):  The receiver was full of grease.
(3):  It took me half an hour to scrub the barrel clean of all the gook that was in it.  This was even before I fired it.
(4):  The elevator cutout was not cut square.
(5):  The pin holding the Magazine tube fell out when I was firing it and the cap and magazine spring popped out the front of the magazine.

If you had (have) problems with your rifle, what did you do to correct it or what do you intend to do to resolve it?

(1):  I contacted the feller who sold me the rifle, and he put me on to the Gentleman up at Charter Arms, Nick Ecker, who had me send it back to him for replacement.
(2):  I did not like the front or rear sights so I replaced them with a set of Marbles Full Buckhorn Rear Sight and a 3/32nd White Dot Front Sight

In the poll, you can vote up to 9 of the options - if you experienced all 9 listed.  If you encountered a problem that is not listed, please vote for Option 9 and explain what it was in the thread

[Hoof Hearted]

Grapeshot

Option #10:
Given what you experienced and now know about the Chaparral would you buy another?

Option#11:
After experiencing said problems would you recommend a Chaparral to a friend?

Option #12:
How's that Uberti sounding right about now

[Grapeshot]

Option #10:
Given what you experienced and now know about the Chaparral would you buy another?

Only if I can get their carbine, RCMP type, in .45-60.
Option#11:
After experiencing said problems would you recommend a Chaparral to a friend?

Only If I know that their QC issues were cleared up.  The guns do shoot well.

Option #12:
How's that Uberti sounding right about now ?

A whole lot better, however, they weren't available at the time I bought mine.

[john boy]

Well, after 3 fixes to correct the magazine tube from moving past the muzzle during recoil - I called Charter Arms yesterday and talked to Dee Ecker for new parts

• Magazine Tube
• Plug
• Ring
• and a forearm screw that I left on the bench when I was up there

Got a call today from Dee and Chris (who does the repairs) is sending out the parts TODAY!
I call this SERVICE with a capital 'S'

Of course, I promised Dee a box of chocolates the next time I'm up in CT 

[Doc Sorebones]

Chapparal 1876 45/60 early (sub 300) serial number. Most accurate shooting heap of crap I have ever had to deal with........
1. cheap,ill-fitting,ugly faux-finished box wood stocks replaced with beautiful American wallnut,hand fitted=$350.00
2.Front sight blade fell out after 4 shots,replaced with excellent Marbles for=$28.00
3.Rear sight from old Mattel toys stock...shockingly junky.=Buffalo arms contacted and sold me an authentic replica $150.00.
4.Safety disconector does not contact pad on lever.....no fix at present.
5.Excessively tight lock-up on closing,perhaps too little headspace.
6.Action was full of very stiff grease.
7.Paid an initial $1000.00 for a $500.00 gun.
8.Made at the OLD Armi-San-Marco factory home of the A.W.A. line of troubled guns.

The barrels on these rifles is the best part,they should sell them to Uberti(unless,of course,that is who they buy them from!)

Never again!!!!,I will hand -pick a Uberti next time and I am sure it will be a better peice. Doc