Thuer Conversion questions...... info needed

[Crow Scout]

I'm at a stand still with my Richards 1st Model Navy conversions so in the meantime I'm making a pair of 1860 Army Thuer conversions. 

I can make the ammunition or have it made but my question is how in the heck are these headspaced?  There doesn't seem to be any means of restricting the forward movement of the cartridge.  I'm assuming that headspacing was an unknown issue in the late 1860's. 

Any thoughts on this?  Could this be a reason that Uberti decided not to produce the Thuer Conversion? 

One last thing.  Does anyone know where I could find prints or an original to reverse engineer from?  Any and all ideas are much appreciated.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Now you know why the Thuer conversion was merely a "novelty" and never popular. 

[St. George]

Given that it never saw commercial success, Thuer Conversions are found in excellent condition, since they saw very little use.

It was a design that showed great promise - on the drawing board.

The reality was somewhat different - with a tapered cartridge, special loading tools and an easily fouled gas ring that all combined for poor sales.

The first Thuer Conversions appeared in 1869, and production ceased in 1872, with the advent of the Richards Conversion.

Though supplied with the 1860 Army, 1851 Navy, 1861 Navy, 1862 Police, 1849 Pocket, 1862 Pocket Pistol of Navy Caliber - and the experimentals - the Third Dragoon, First Dragoon, 1855 Sidehammer Revolver, and 1855 Sidehammer Rifle - production did not exceed 5000 weapons.

You can view the Patent Drawings - #82,258 - September 15, 1868, and # 98,529 - January 4, 1870.

There's an interesting chapter on the Thuer Conversions in Sutherland's 'The Book of Colt Firearms'.

Making a workable cartridge today would be an achievement, since they didn't figure that out during the time frame.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Flint]

The cartridge case is tapered toward the rear, so it basically is jammed into place by being a conical shaped wedge, this set the headspace, so to speak..  The ejector at the rear near the hammer pushed the fired case forward to break it loose to fall out the front of the cylinder.

[Crow Scout]

The reality was somewhat different - with a tapered cartridge, special loading tools and an easily fouled gas ring that all combined for poor sales.

Making a workable cartridge today would be an achievement, since they didn't figure that out during the time frame.

I'm not completely familiar with the terminology yet.  Can you explaing what part of the revolver is considered the gas ring?

As for ammunition, I've got that part licked.... I think.   They didn't figure it out back then but I have the advantage of nearly 150 years worth of cartridge design information to work with.  If all goes well then not only will my cartridges be very similar in overall shape to the original but will be headspaceable (if that's even a real word) and easily available (if you consider fireforming and reloading your own cartridges, easy).  I've been working on this for about 6 months now so I really hope it turns out well.

Of course I'll be posting pics and info as the project moves along.   

[Capt. Willard]

I wish Uberti would go ahead and market the Thuer (they have the prototype already built). I don't think they will meet with much comercial success but hope they go for it anyway. I want a pair of 1860 Thuer conversions for Christmas!

[Crow Scout]

I have some detailed pictures of the Uberti prototype and it doesn't look like a difficult build.  I've thought about this quite a bit and I truly believe they scrapped the idea because it simply wasn't safe in the original configuration.  Personally I wouldn't fire a revolver that wasn't headspaced. 

I know what you mean about wanting a Thuer.  I've been drooling over them for quite a while.  I just wouldn't want one if I couldn't shoot it.  That's why I've been trying to get past some of the problems related to the ammunition.  I'm hoping to have something that not only shoots and shoots well but could be used as match guns as well. 

[Flint]

A gas ring is an extension or bushing on the cylinder that covers the cylinder pin to keep fouling from the barrel/cylinder gap from getting into the bearing surfaces of the cylinder and pin or arbor.

The Opentop Colt (and Uberti) have a gas ring, and as a result will shoot a lot before fouling to a stop with black powder.  The Colt SAA has a bushing in the cylinder that extends forward to the frame, as do Smith & Wesson revolvers.  The Ruger Blackhawk and Vaquero gas ring is a solid portion of the cylinder, not removable like the Colt SAA.

The gas ring also, as it reaches the frame, sets the endshake and headspace.

The earlier cap & ball guns often had no gas ring, as the Remington and Colts show, and as a result, fouled fairly quickly.  They were more forgiving in the endshake, as the hammer nose had a fairly long reach, and had no cartridge requiring headspace precision for proper firing pin to primer impact.  Conversions and later cartridge firing revolvers showed the need for a gas ring as much for headspace control as anything else, and of course benifit from the covered arbor/cylinder pin.

[Crow Scout]

Wow.  I knew nothing about that....... at all.  Thanks for the info.

[Dakota Widowmaker]

Nice little article as well...

http://www.oldammo.com/august06.htm



I suppose one could try and make a similar round by using drawn brass or aluminum... but, I wouldn't want to be in the room when you try and load it.

[St. George]

They didn't want try to do that when the round was new, and if done today, a shooter would spend a helluva lot of time picking that brass up, since it would 'not' be cheap, as modern manufacturers would seriously have to re-tool in order to produce it.

With no real market beyond a scant few, that's not going to happen any time soon.

That'd mean any ammunition would necessarily have to be custom-made and expensive - and any reloading tools would fall into the same category.

Perhaps there'd be a niche market for a 'Thuer Kit' - but actual demand would have to be fairly high in order to off-set the associated costs of everything, both wholesale and retail - and when there's an excess of easily-reloadable ammunition and components - any manufacturer would be thinking twice before tooling up, since he'd be looking at the bottom line for some sort of profit.

The rimmed cartridge was a godsend, and as centerfire followed rimfire, the Thuer was left in the dust as the short-lived novelty it was.

Good Luck to you.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Flint]

Crow Scout,

You can see the gas ring on the loose cylinders for these Uberti Opentops.  See on the assembled ones how the tubular ring extends all the way forward to the barrel lug, and with proper wedge position, control the endshake.  Too tight a wedge and the cylinder gets clamped.  Too loose and you lose your headspace.  Solid topstrap frames are easier to deal with in that department.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a293/rcflint/threecalbers.jpg

[Crow Scout]

Ah yes.  I see exactly what you mean.  There is no such gas ring on the c&b revolvers.  Shooting smokeless should help with this problem, correct? 

Thanks for the picture.  That helped a ton. 

As for ammunition, I've tried to tally up the costs as follows.

Initial price for 100 rounds in 44 caliber :

Brass - $65 may be as low as $40 in the end (38 caliber is only $18 for 100)

Bullets - $8

Reloading Dies - $100 (I'm being very pessimistic with this one.  I believe the cost will be closer to $75)

I'm not including primers because they're so cheap or powders since there are so many options there.  I think we all know the cost of all the different powders.

Reloading after the initial purchase would be simply the cost of primers, powder, and bullets.  You may have to buy your brass each time if you plan to eject them somewhere that you can't recover them. 

Perhaps I'm being naive with these figures.  I won't really know until I give it a shot and that's what I plan on doing.  Wish me luck.  I just may need some of that.

[Pettifogger]

Looks like I'll have to scratch a pair of those Thuers off my Christmas list.

[Abilene]

I think it was in the McDowell conversion book that I read the Thuer's had very tight tolerances in the cylinder and brass in order to keep the cartridges in place at the rear of the cylinder.

Here's one of them protos:

[Long Johns Wolf]

Sorry I am late - but I jumped on the Thuer bandwaggon only recently.
Crow Scout: Karl Nedbal, master gunsmith from Austria is making the cases for his Thuer cartridges from .44 mag cases.
I have a question: what was the approx. weight of the .44 Thuer bullet.
Long Johns Wolf

[Crow Scout]

LJW, that's a good question.  I did a brief look over of McDowell's book and can't seem to find any information on bullet weights.  If you have better luck then please give me a heads up of what you find. 

[Flint]

The bullet looks like the conical style used with the cap & ball, loose or paper cartridge type, so probably weighs about the same as the Colt conical front stuffer, all it needed was a rear groove to crimp the case mouth into, as it was a heeled bullet design.

[Bryan Austin]

Dagnabit....now I find it!!!!!!

Given that it never saw commercial success, Thuer Conversions are found in excellent condition, since they saw very little use.

It was a design that showed great promise - on the drawing board.

The reality was somewhat different - with a tapered cartridge, special loading tools and an easily fouled gas ring that all combined for poor sales.

The first Thuer Conversions appeared in 1869, and production ceased in 1872, with the advent of the Richards Conversion.

Though supplied with the 1860 Army, 1851 Navy, 1861 Navy, 1862 Police, 1849 Pocket, 1862 Pocket Pistol of Navy Caliber - and the experimentals - the Third Dragoon, First Dragoon, 1855 Sidehammer Revolver, and 1855 Sidehammer Rifle - production did not exceed 5000 weapons.

You can view the Patent Drawings - #82,258 - September 15, 1868, and # 98,529 - January 4, 1870.

There's an interesting chapter on the Thuer Conversions in Sutherland's 'The Book of Colt Firearms'.

Making a workable cartridge today would be an achievement, since they didn't figure that out during the time frame.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Long Johns Wolf]

it appears that HEGE in Messkirch/Germany is now beyond prototype stage  with their Uberti based Thuer 1860, see
www.waffen-hege.de/addons/Neuentwicklungen.html
Long Johns Wolf