Smokeless in '76 Clones

[Jubal Wilson]

Griz,
Thanks for posting that information.  The reason that I deleted my posts was that after hearing all the comments by the group I got concerned about the load I was using.  The velocity that you got with 25 gr of H4198 matches up with what others have reported.  Although my chrono gave me an average of 1315 fps I am beginning to suspect it.  Even though I was using time tested procedures in developing that load if the test instrument is wrong then everything is wrong.
When I can finally get to the range (snow and mud) I am going to take my .22 rifle and a box of ammo that I know the velocity for and chrono it.  If it doesn't come out the same then the chrono is history.  Actually it is an antique since it is 25+ years old.

[Crotchety Old Grouch]

FYI, this is an e-mail I recieved in response to my request for smokeless reloading data for the 45-60 and 45-75 calibers.

I think it is a good indication of the "track record" that is being extablished for 5744 in the 1876 chamberings.

"Unfortunately we do not have any specific lab tested data on these calibers.

(See notes 1.1 and 2.1below).

However, we can provide you with some guideline, based on calculations and information from other sources.

Caliber:      .45-60 Winchester (1.89")

Case length:         1.89"

Case Capacity:     ca 4.252cc/65.5grains of H2O

Barrel length:      26"

COL (max):           2.15"

Powder:           Accurate -- 5744.

Bullet weight:   300-325 grains.

Start load: 22.0 grains (1250 – 1350 ft/p/sec)

Maximum load: 26.0 grains (1400 – 1500 Ft/p/sec).

Bullet weight:   350 grains.

Start load: 20.0 grains (1150 – 1250 ft/p/sec)

Maximum load: 24.0 grains (1300 – 1400 Ft/p/sec).

Bullet weight:   400 grains.

Start load: 18.0 grains (1075 – 1175 ft/p/sec)

Maximum load: 22.0 grains (1200 – 1300 Ft/p/sec).

Caliber:      .45-75 Winchester.

Case length:         1.895"

Case capacity:      5.189cc/79.92 grains of water

Pressure level:    <18000 psi.

Barrel length:      28"

Powder:           Accurate -- 5744.

Bullet weight:  300 grains.

Start load: 27.0 grains (1475 – 1575 Ft/p/sec)

Maximum load: 31.0 grains (1650 – 1750 Ft/p/sec)

Bullet weight:  330 grains.

Start load: 24.0 grains (1300 – 1400 Ft/p/sec)

Maximum load: 28.0 grains (1500 – 1600 Ft/p/sec)

Bullet weight:  350 grains.

Start load: 21.0 grains (1100 – 1200 Ft/p/sec)

Maximum load: 25.0 grains (1300 – 1400 Ft/p/sec)

Bullet weight:  400 grains.

Start load: 17.0 grains (900 – 1000 Ft/p/sec)

Maximum load: 21.0 grains (1100 – 1200 Ft/p/sec)



NOTES:

It' important to note that:

Whenever Western Powders Inc do not test, and have actual data, on a particular caliber or caliber/bullet combination, we may in some cases provide some guideline. This information will be based on various procedures and calculations, or from other very reliable sources.

1.        SAFETY is our prime concern therefore:

1.1.   The loading data is conservative, especially regarding the minimum or start load to ensure a safe baseline to work from.

1.2.   The safety margin built into the start load might be more than the customary 10%.

2.        We strongly recommend.

2.1.   To always start at the recommended minimum "START" load.

2.2.   If at all possible, measure the velocity.

2.3.   Contact us again with the velocity data, so that we can verify, and correlate with our calculated/estimated data. The data should also be compared, with the typical velocity levels accepted in the industry, for that particular caliber-bullet weight combination."

The last line is important, as it reinforces what we have been saying in regards to working up safe loads.  Stay within the "typical velocity levels" for the caliber - BP velocities in this case, and verify what your doing with a chrono.

Well I finally got around to trying out this info.  I used two different bullets, the Lee 340 gn. Cast with straight wheel wight and the Lyman 350gn. Cast with home made Lyman #2 allow.  Both were lubed with SPG and sized to .459".  They were fired through a 45-75 cal. Chaparral NWMP Carbine with a 22" round barrel.  Target @ 50 yards, Chrono @ 10".

Here are the results:

Lyman 350 Grain RNFP
Powder 5744  

Charge: 21 grains            Charge: 21.5               Charge: 22.0            Charge: 22.5

Lo 802.1                                 966.3                          972.9                      1012
Hi 985.0                                1000.0                       1000.3                      1032
Av 914.9                                 979.2                         985.1                      1025
Es 182.8                                  34.19                         30.98                      19.77
Sd 70.97                                 13.31                          12.0                         9.17

Charge: 23 grains            Charge: 23.5               Charge: 24.0              Charge 24.5

Lo  999.1                                1025                          1065                         1086
Hi  1079                                 1087                          1131                         1140
Av 1047                                 1062                          1099                         1117  
Es  80.37                                61.86                         66.05                        54.25                      
Sd  31.89                                26.71                         25.25                       21.63



Lee 340 Grain RNFP
Powder 5744

Charge: 23 grains                Charge: 23.5               Charge: 24.0              Charge: 24.5

Lo 1025                                     1042                          1082                           1088  
Hi 1068                                     1091                           1096                           1123
Av 1049                                    1071                           1090                           1103
Es 42.37                                    49.71                          13.83                          34.35
Sd  16.0                                    20.85                           7.21                            14.66  

My goal in using 5744 is to come up with some target loads suitable for Lever Action Silhouette marches.  So far the most accurate load with either bullet in my rifle uses 23.5grains of 5744.
These loads do not have the smallest Es or Sd but do produce the smallest groups.  I suspect this has something to do with barrel harmonics.

At 50 yards the Lyman bullet produces 1 7/8" group with the round evenly spread throughout the group.  The Lee bullet put 3 rounds in one 5/8" cloverleaf hole while the other two opened the group to 2 ½" (I had fired over 40 rounds before I shot this group so the flyers may have been me).   This isn't bad considering the wide shallow V rear sight on the carbine plus my old eyes.

For target shooting the Lee bullet seems to hold the edge for now, but I still have to try it at ranges up too 200 m.  Another plus is that it drops from a 2 bullet mold.  

[OKDEE]

Hey COH!  Great results!  Single digits is pretty good.  WHat is your process of weighing your powder?
I am using a RCBS RockChucker Single stage with the powder measure.  I get close to what weight I desire and then I turn on my RCBS Micro Pro Electronic Scale.  I then, measure each load and get it within + or - .1 on the scale of the desired amount.
For example, I am locked into 38.0, I will take 37.9, 38.0 and 38.1 as a load in that batch.  I also am using a polywad, which really seems to help.

Oklahoma Dee

[Crotchety Old Grouch]

Hi Okee, When I'm working up loads I use a Hornady powder measure to throw the charge a little lite into the pan of my scale.  Then bring the charge up to the desired weight with a powder trickler.   Now that I've found the general powder range (23.5 grains) I will  try some loads +/- from that point in 1/10 grain increments.  Once I finalize a load I just use the powder measure and check the charge periodically.  COG

[eagles]

As mentioned Winchester LOADED smokeless powder loads for the the old 76 . i am sure they did not think , nor is their a shred of evidence that I am aware of that EVEN ONE of those smokelss loads EVER blew up a normal old 76 . To me that ends the debate , I said to me ! Ten X also loads smokeless powder loads for the 76 type ammo including the 50-95 . So to me shooting a low pressure smokeless load in a 76 is not putting rocket fuel in the gun , I dont think they  had rocket fuel when Winchester first decided the gun they designed was safe for the smokeless powder loads they sold to be used in it . 

[Hoof Hearted]

As mentioned Winchester LOADED smokeless powder loads for the the old 76 . i am sure they did not think , nor is their a shred of evidence that I am aware of that EVEN ONE of those smokelss loads EVER blew up a normal old 76 . To me that ends the debate , I said to me ! Ten X also loads smokeless powder loads for the 76 type ammo including the 50-95 . So to me shooting a low pressure smokeless load in a 76 is not putting rocket fuel in the gun , I dont think they  had rocket fuel when Winchester first decided the gun they designed was safe for the smokeless powder loads they sold to be used in it . 

Eagles, I am right here with ya pard!

I am surprised that folks will get on (well not really ) here and try to tell others what is right or wrong! Whatever happened to PERSONAL responsibility? Folks have been listening to politicians and lawyers so long they think we need helmet laws, airbags, child "safety" seats.........hell I had none of these growing up and my daddy and grandpa had enough sense to lad what they wanted! They were careful, safe, and assumed the risk for their actions
This whole "breaking the cardinal rule" about blackpowder thing makes me wanna PUKE!

Way back at the start of this thread, I made a statement about the 5744 loads being "light" and that was because I had gotten data for 45-75 and 45-70 from Western (before the buyout) which mimics the data above and performed my own tests. Let me tell you, after you have shot and reloaded hundreds of thousands of rounds for 35 or so years, you get a feel for things!

OK my soap box is cracking (cause I'm getting fat in my old age) so I'll get off.

Pards, have fun, be careful, and RESPONSIBLE.

Regards
HH

[Grizzly Adams]

As mentioned Winchester LOADED smokeless powder loads for the the old 76 .

Hi, eagles,

Winchester did produce smokeless loading for use in the model of 1873, but I have never seen any evidence that they produced smokeless loads for the 1876.  Where did you get that information?

I certainly agree that we can safely shoot smokeless in the new rifles, and as noted in this thread, there are suitable powders available.

[RattlesnakeJack]

Howdy Folks:

Haven't yet weighed in on this discussion,  largely because of time constraints having limited my visiting some boards ....

Have now scanned through this lengthy .... and at times lively ..... discussion and, unless I've missed it, I've seen no mention of Trail Boss as a possibly suitable smokeless for loads for the 1876 clones.

My rifle is a Chaparral Arms NWMP carbine in 45-75, which the same time constraints (plus a lousy winter) have prevented me from firing yet, let alone trying to develop any loads.  (Well, I did get out to the range once to try some prototype - and very conservative - fire-forming loads in ten of my partially re-formed .348 cases.  Unfortunately, they were much too conservative, as I could see no discernable difference in the cases after firing ...... except for a lot of soot, that is!  I was pleasantly surprised, however, with the very consistent impact point on the hundred yard berm, even with these 'mouse fart' loads, suggesting very good accuracy potential.

Anyway .... I have acquired a supply of Trail Boss powder to try out for .45 Colt cowboy action loads, and am wondering what the collective wisdom would be on trying it in loads for my .45-75?  Has anyone experimented with it for loads for any of the 1876 clones?

Now I do realize that this powder was developed with "pistol caliber" cartridges in mind, but I also see that IMR show some suggested rifle loads, up to 45-70 (e.g. max. quoted load of 16.5 gr. behind a 300 gr. .458" LFP bullet producing 1285 fps at 20,900 CUP ... as a possible comparison for "potential" loads ifor .45-75.  Min. quoted load for same bullet is 14 gr. producing 1199 fps at  14,300 CUP .....  http://www.imrpowder.com/data/rifle/trailboss-oct2005.php)

(I have also heard some mention of successful use of Trail Boss in such cavernous cases as theBritish  .577/.450 Martini-Henry cartridge, believe it or not .....)

What say you, Gentlemen?

Also, can somebody point me to some basic fire-forming information, and also suggest some suitable fire-forming loads for .348 to  .45-75 forming.  (To be honest, my ten 'mouse fart' .45-75 lloads were my first ever attempt to fire-form any case ....)

[Grizzly Adams]

Howdy Folks:

Haven't yet weighed in on this discussion,  largely because of time constraints having limited my visiting some boards ....

Have now scanned through this lengthy .... and at times lively ..... discussion and, unless I've missed it, I've seen no mention of Trail Boss as a possibly suitable smokeless for loads for the 1876 clones.

My rifle is a Chaparral Arms NWMP carbine in 45-75, which the same time constraints (plus a lousy winter) have prevented me from firing yet, let alone trying to develop any loads.  (Well, I did get out to the range once to try some prototype - and very conservative - fire-forming loads in ten of my partially re-formed .348 cases.  Unfortunately, they were much too conservative, as I could see no discernable difference in the cases after firing ...... except for a lot of soot, that is!  I was pleasantly surprised, however, with the very consistent impact point on the hundred yard berm, even with these 'mouse fart' loads, suggesting very good accuracy potential.

Anyway .... I have acquired a supply of Trail Boss powder to try out for .45 Colt cowboy action loads, and am wondering what the collective wisdom would be on trying it in loads for my .45-75?  Has anyone experimented with it for loads for any of the 1876 clones?

Now I do realize that this powder was developed with "pistol caliber" cartridges in mind, but I also see that IMR show some suggested rifle loads, up to 45-70 (e.g. max. quoted load of 16.5 gr. behind a 300 gr. .458" LFP bullet producing 1285 fps at 20,900 CUP ... as a possible comparison for "potential" loads ifor .45-75.  Min. quoted load for same bullet is 14 gr. producing 1199 fps at  14,300 CUP .....  http://www.imrpowder.com/data/rifle/trailboss-oct2005.php)

(I have also heard some mention of successful use of Trail Boss in such cavernous cases as theBritish  .577/.450 Martini-Henry cartridge, believe it or not .....)

What say you, Gentlemen?

Also, can somebody point me to some basic fire-forming information, and also suggest some suitable fire-forming loads for .348 to  .45-75 forming.  (To be honest, my ten 'mouse fart' .45-75 lloads were my first ever attempt to fire-form any case ....)

Afternoon, RattlesnakeJack.

My preferred method of fire forming the 348 into 45-75 is to fill the case with as much BP or a BP sub, seat the bullet and let fly.  If you want to use smokeless for fire forming, try 21.5 grains of 5744 under your 350 grain bullet.  My experience is that it takes 4-5 firing to get the "coke bottle" shape out of the case!

As for Trailboss, I have never used it.  Folks seem to be having good luck with it in large cases, and IMR does publish data for same.  If I was going to, I would take the minimum published load for a trapdoor Springfield as a starting point.

[w44wcf]

Regarding Winchester factory smokeless cartridges for the '76, I only know of one that was ever listed in the catalogs...the .50-95, in 1896 & 1897.  The 40 gr. smokeless charge was DuPont No. 1 Bulk Smokeless.  Interesting that this loading used metal patched bullets.

Here's a pic of the box from the book One Hundred Years Of WINCHESTER Cartridge Boxes  by Ray Giles and Dan Schuey.


w44wcf

[Grizzly Adams]

Regarding Winchester factory smokeless cartridges for the '76, I only know of one that was ever listed in the catalogs...the .50-95, in 1896 & 1897.  The 40 gr. smokeless charge was DuPont No. 1 Bulk Smokeless.  Interesting that this loading used metal patched bullets.

Here's a pic of the box from the book One Hundred Years Of WINCHESTER Cartridge Boxes  by Ray Giles and Dan Schuey.


w44wcf

Very interesting information!  Thanks w44wcf - great post.

[w44wcf]

Grizzly Adams,
Thank you. You are most welcome.  Cartridge history sure is interesting.   There is a remote possibility that other '76 cartridges may have been offered in a smokeless version but were never cataloged.  The previously mentioned book shows box illustrations of the other '76 cartridges but they are all b.p.

Regarding the .50-95 smokeless loading, it is probable that someone higher up in the Winchester organization had a .50-95, or one of their closest friend(s) did and, seeing the development of the '86 cartridges with smokeless, wanted a smokeless cartridge  for their rifle(s). The fact that it was only offered for two years would indicate that.  Apparently it was not a sought after loading.

From an earlier post:
Winchester began their development of smokeless ammunition for b.p. cartridges in the late 1893-1894 time period. They started introducing these types of smokeless cartridges in late 1894 and development continued over the next few years until all the smokeless b.p rounds were complete....all, that is, except for the '76 cartridges.

Why?  Well, unfortunately, by that time, the '76 had pretty much run it's course, so there was no effort made to develop smokeless cartridges for it.  The one exception was the .50-95, which was offered in a smokeless version for a short period of time before 1900...................

w44wcf

[Hobie]

Just stirring up the dust.   

I dropped by to say that I've posted no more on the subject due to priority responsibilities, namely, my mother.  I hope to get to this soon. 

[Grizzly Adams]

Just stirring up the dust.   

I dropped by to say that I've posted no more on the subject due to priority responsibilities, namely, my mother.  I hope to get to this soon. 

I hope things are going well with you, Amigo.

[Hobie]

I hope things are going well with you, Amigo.

As well as can be expected.  It is what it is... 

[Joe Lansing]

    I load my Chaparral 45-60 with 23gr. 4759 topped with a 300 gr. hard cast bullet. I got my original data from an article in the 3rd edition (1967) of the Handloaders Digest.
It recommended 22gr. of 4759 giving a m.v. of 1370 f.p.s. 22gr. averaged for me about1000 f.p.s., so I increased the charge in steps up to 26gr.giving me about 1340 f.p.s.
    I also tried other powders: 4198; Pyrodex (compressed); 2400; and my favorite duplex load of 8 gr. 4759 topped with FFg black powder (a sufficient amount for the charge to be compressed). I discovered from the chronograph results that all of the smokeless loads had a 100 f.p.s. variation but the Pyrodex and duplex loads had only approx. 15 f.p.s. variation. This indicated to me that my smokeless loads needed to be compressed (by means of a filler). I put a filler (4 pieces of Quaker Puffed Rice) over my 26 gr. load of 4759 and my velocity jumped to  about 1625 f.p.s.:TOO HIGH! Still using the same filler, I reduced the charge to 23 grs., giving me 1420 f.p.s. average velocity. This is where I have stayed.
    Some tips for the 45-60: I use nickle plated cut down 45-70 brass to reduce confusion with 45-70 brass, which I also load;  If you are testing loads of questionable pressure, test them first in a strong 45-70 rifle like a Sharps or Win. 86, etc.(like  shooting 38 specials in a 357 mag.).
    I have chosen to use smokeless powder out of a practical need. If I were to load with B.P. I would go with the duplex load described above. I found it in the old Lyman Cast Bullet  Book (the one with the engraved Sharps on the cover) for the 45-70 using a 405 gr. cast bullet. I my original 1873 Springfield, I could consistantly keep them in the black at 300 yards. and have taken a deer with    that combination.
    I hope this information will be of use to someone.

[Joe Lansing]

    I forgot to mention that the primary purpose of the duplex  load is NO FOULING build up. You can shoot all day and have no build up, but you still must clean your rifle and fired brass. Duplex loads are also described in the 3rd edition of the Handloaders Digest, page 37.

[Harve Curry]

Joe,
Thanks for posting those good loads. 4759 is a tried & true old favorite for those kind of cartridges and guns.

[john boy]

Grouch - thanks kindly for your time to 'do the drill' and posting your results.
Here's the results I had with the first live fire using 23gr XMP5744 and the Lee 340 bullet: