Smokeless in '76 Clones

[Doc Sorebones]

Chapparal 45/60 slugs at .458".
R.C.B.S.300-F.N. gas check sized at .459".
W.W. 45/70 cases (shortened and uniformed).
XMP5744 26.5 grains.
C.C.I. primer.
1250f.p.s. average velocity and 23 f.p.s.deviation.VERY accurate and totally safe 1500 rounds later.still tight as a drum and purring.The "heathen", Doc.

[Jubal Wilson]

I might as well throw my two cents worth in here.  I have a Uberti 1876 in 45-60 with 28 inch barrel.  It is indeed a fine looking manly rifle  .  I have over 50 years of experience in shooting black powder rifles of all kinds and haven't blown one up yet. 

I HAVE DELETED THE REST OF THIS POST AND ALL SUBSEQUENT POSTS DUE TO THE AMOUNT OF CONTROVERSY MY COMMENTS HAVE GENERATED.  I FEEL IT IS BEST IF THE LOAD DATA THAT I PRESENTED BE WITHDRAWN FROM THE KNOWLEDGE BASE LESS SOMEONE MISUSE THE DATA AND IT CREATES A DANGEROUS SITUATION.

[Hoof Hearted]

Jubal

You DANGEROUS man!
You are taking way too many chances
Are you related to Elmer, PO, or Skeeter?

Humm real soft and slow and try to conform

[w44wcf]

Doc,
Thank you for your data.

Jubal,
Likewise, thank you for your data.  In a previous post I noted that the .45-60 cartridge with a 300 gr. bullet (seating depth .40") has the same capacity as a .45-70 catridge with a  405 gr. bullet (seating depth .63").

The Lyman cast bullet handbook shows a loading in the .45-70 with 28.5 grs. IMR 4198 developing only 13,900 C.U.P. with a 420 gr. bullet. There could be a slightly different burn rate between your lot of 4198 and the lot that Lyman used, but since your chronographed your load at 1,315 f.p.s., your load should be plenty safe.

Regarding accuracy with b.p., if you tried the SWISS brand you just might find that you would achieve better accuracy since the fouling is softer allowing for more accurate repeating shots.  Schuetzen BP would likely be better in your application than Goex but probably not quite as good as SWISS.  SPG would be a good lube to use. 

w44wcf     

[Fox Creek Kid]

You're using "voodoo" to determine case pressure. Don't believe me? Read this and pay particular attention to the paragraph half way through:

http://www.oehler-research.com/wizard.html

[Fox Creek Kid]

...I am only trying to duplicate black powder velocities ...

Velocity and pressure are not always symbiotic. Velocity in this case is not an complete indicator of pressure. Did you read the article? Let me quote the most important part:

"During the school, we had the opportunity to see the "fallacy" in the commonly used means of pressure determination. All it takes is a harder-than-normal lot of brass, and none of the conventional pressure signs (brass flow as evidenced by difficult bolt lift or extraction [a shiny spot on the base of the case], primer pocket expansion, or even measurable case expansion) show up at reasonable pressure levels. It's not all that uncommon for even proof loads to appear safe from these commonly relied upon indicators of pressure. In reality, the case has failed when brass begins to flow. The bandleader has already exceeded safe pressure levels. Oehler's system can change all that and you can learn a lot more about the uniformity of your loads in the process."

In layman's terms, if you're not using scientific laboratory grade equipment in a cartridge that has NO smokeless benchmark reference then you have NO IDEA what the pressure is. You are only guessing. You think it is safe only because quite literally the gun has not exploded as the aforementioned HARD scientific data states the lunacy of relying on fallacy & oft repeated old wive's tales. When your credentials surpass those of Ken Oehler & Rick Jamison I'll listen.

[Hobie]

FCK,

I agree that looking for pressure signs at these pressures when comparing apples to oranges (different cases and different primers) CAN be dangerous indeed. 30 gr. IMR 4198 isn't within the 40% rule as Jubal pointed out.  Neither will Ken Waters' case head expansion work here, in my opinion, as the pressures are just too low and the modern brass not soft enough to readily/consistently expand at these pressures.

We do have lab data showing the 40% rule for IMR 4198 is valid (as reported in this topic by 44WCF).  We should work from that to deduce what exactly is happening.

What I don't agree with is your assumption that, since somebody doesn't agree with your conclusion they must be stupid and unread.  That's the tone you have and it is more than unsettling.  You don't provide new arguments but restate the old ones (or simply repeat).  That is not helpful to either you or your correspondent.  It IS Jubal's rifle and he is reporting HIS results.  This is empirical data we should welcome.

Jubal,

30 gr. IMR 4918 might be safe in your .45-60 but I think that it likely is right at the boundary of safe pressures (maybe above or below) as your charge is 50% (not 40% as, again, you pointed out) of what went into the old cases but in new cases (which are often of lesser capacity).  I would be thinking about this quite a bit before I did it in MY rifle.  Not being able to handle the cartridge cases or rifle I wouldn't dare to say one way or the other.  30 gr. IMR or H 4198 is in the .45-75 WCF range.  BP actually has a very rapid pressure spike (that's how it "bumps up" bullets) and that may (note my qualifying remarks! ) be the only difference in the two (BP and 4198) loads. 

You likely know all this already but my few poor remarks might be edifying to some lurking readers and will clarify any other comments I have made or might make in this topic. 

[Crotchety Old Grouch]

Here is a link to the only NEW reloading data that I've found for the 76 Winchester rounds.  It comes from the Chaparral website.

http://www.chaparralarms.com/specs/calibers.htm

[Hobie]

Kirk Durston is one of the most concientious reloaders I know.  There are some here who decry the use of smokeless powder in these guns as part of their life dogma...   

[w44wcf]

Guys,
We do have data!  As I said, The .45-60 with a 300 gr bullet (.40" seating depth) HAS THE SAME CASE CAPACITY as the .45-70 with a 405 gr. bullet (seating depth .63").  .63"-.40" = .23"  the same difference in length between the .45-70 and .45-60 cases.

The Lyman ballistic laboratory recorded the following .45-70 loads for velocity and pressure.   
From the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook:
Bullet weight: 420 grs.
70.0 grs./   FFG / 1,268 f.p.s. / 16,400 C.U.P.
28.5 grs./ 4198 / 1,267 f.p.s. / 13,900 C.U.P.

w44wcf

[Hobie]

Here is a link to the only NEW reloading data that I've found for the 76 Winchester rounds.  It comes from the Chaparral website.

http://www.chaparralarms.com/specs/calibers.htm

Thanks buddy! 

[Jubal Wilson]

This is a target shot using my load in my Cimarron/Uberti 1876 in 45-60 at 50 yards.  There always seems to be one that won't conform.


The older I get the harder it is to herd all them holes into one place.

[Hoof Hearted]

Hoof Hearted,
I don't believe that I am a dangerous man.  I treat all my firearms with great respect and never try to hotrod any of them.  The load that I mentioned in my previous post is completely safe in my rifle.  Since June I have done a lot of testing with different loads and here are some of my findings.  In the 45-60 using the 321 grain RCBS 45-300 GC and H4198 if I use the 40% rule as a starting point i.e. 24 grains there is insufficient pressure developed to seal the case mouth against the chamber and therefore get smoke marks half way down the case  .  At 26 grains there is still not enough pressure to seal the case and there is still a lot of smoke on the cases.  At 28 grains there is only an occational case with black marks and at 30 grains there are never any black marks  .  When I load 60 grains of GOEX Cartridge using the same bullet I also get no black marks on the outside of the cases but the primers (Winchester Large Rifle in all cases) are imprinted with the machine marks on the bolt face.  I do not get imprinted primers using 30 grains of H4198.  This implies to me that the pressure from the black powder load is greater than the pressure from the smokeless load and since I am getting close to the original factory velocity I feel this is safe for my rifle  .
I have also been working with 5744 at around 26 to 26.5 but until I get to chronograph these loads I won't comment further.
My ultimate goal is to find a black powder load that is very accurate and that I can shoot a 40 round match with out needing to clean between animals.  Once I find that load then that will be all I will shoot in my rifle.
One other thing I saw on another thread that someone was asking how to clean a rifle after shooting black powder.  I have a home made rifle rest that allows me to place the rifle in upside down so that the breach is lower than the muzzle and that keeps all the gunk out of the action.  I use any commercial black powder solvent for cleaning.  This method has worked fine for me for the past 50+ years.
Hold center.

Jeez...........Nothing like ass u ming
I was (am) on yer side and agreeing with you..............I ass u med you were part of the topic from (or had read the topic from) the beginning!

Unless someone deleted my earlier (controversial ) comments on this thread I had said these "doubting thomas's" were acting like Chicken Little's (although I refrained from saying exactly that, I thought it )

My comments were tongue in cheek and there is no disclaimer here.

[Harve Curry]

Glad I found this 1876 Winchester forum. It's a intersting educational topic. My thanks to Fox Creek Kid for starting it.
I shoot smokeless in my originals. I read and study alot and learned along time ago that it is posssible to load smokeless and be equal to or lighter pressure then black powder loads. It's also easy to screw up and exceed it .
I was fortunate enough to have a friend offer to test my 45-70 load in a pressure barrel. Results are:
Hercules 2400, poly fiber fill over the powder , Lyman/Gould 330+gr bullet cast of wheel weights, WWLR primer, Rem case.
45-70 pressure barrel, 20 shots fired , 18,300psi. , 1134fPS , SD 13fps, extreme spread 39fps , 1" X 1.125" group.
If you want the load info email me and I'll reply back with the recipe.
There's a good book Forty Years With The .45-70 , by Paul A. Matthews. Alot of info can be used from that book as standard practices when developing loads. Such as using IMR 3031 powders, use it for heavier bullets in strong rifles.
The author recommends using 4759, Hercules 2400, IMR4227 for loads under 1600 fps and Dacron filler.
My load has worked for me for over 1000's rounds and 17 years now.

[Jabez Cowboy]

Pards;
First off , I was a member about 5 years back and somehow I got lost  ,,,,,, But I am back .....

As too presure "Spikes" in smokeless loadings , If you are getting presure spikes then you are using the Wrong powder for the job at hand ....  What causes presure "Spikes" is burning smokeless powder outside of it design parameters ...   As in trying to reach the same velocities possible with "LIL GUN"  in .44 mag. using Win 231 ...  Or any other faster burning powder ...

The presure curve of loads can now be measured , and not just guessed at ... And with proper loads the max presure and the rate at which the presure rises can be held to produce less strain on old steel than "BLACK POWDER" loads of yore ...

The presure curve as measured and ploted by modern professional balistic equipment is worlds above that availible even 3 years ago ...

A pard form the SASS wire pointed out this thread to me , so I thought I would try and bring a little light instead of all fire and smoke ....

Jabez Cowboy

[Grizzly Adams]

Pards;
First off , I was a member about 5 years back and somehow I got lost  ,,,,,, But I am back .....

As too presure "Spikes" in smokeless loadings , If you are getting presure spikes then you are using the Wrong powder for the job at hand ....  What causes presure "Spikes" is burning smokeless powder outside of it design parameters ...   As in trying to reach the same velocities possible with "LIL GUN"  in .44 mag. using Win 231 ...  Or any other faster burning powder ...

The presure curve of loads can now be measured , and not just guessed at ... And with proper loads the max presure and the rate at which the presure rises can be held to produce less strain on old steel than "BLACK POWDER" loads of yore ...

The presure curve as measured and ploted by modern professional balistic equipment is worlds above that availible even 3 years ago ...

A pard form the SASS wire pointed out this thread to me , so I thought I would try and bring a little light instead of all fire and smoke ....

Jabez Cowboy

Welcome back, Jabez!  Glad to have your iinput, and hope you will visit often!  I agree that it is all about selecting the correct powder, and we seem to be identifying some powders which do work well, and safely, in this family of cartridges.

[Grizzly Adams]

I was fortunate enough to have a friend offer to test my 45-70 load in a pressure barrel. Results are:
Hercules 2400, poly fiber fill over the powder , Lyman/Gould 330+gr bullet cast of wheel weights, WWLR primer, Rem case.
45-70 pressure barrel, 20 shots fired , 18,300psi. , 1134fPS , SD 13fps, extreme spread 39fps , 1" X 1.125" group.
If you want the load info email me and I'll reply back with the recipe.

My load has worked for me for over 1000's rounds and 17 years now.

Hi Harve,

I know you have a fine first model 1876 in 45-75.  In your post, is the 45-70- a typo, or have you had your 45-75 load pressure tested?

[Harve Curry]

Howdy Grizzly,
45-70. I use it in a 1881 Marlin maunufactured in 1886. It's been my primary rifle for over 15 years now. I'm going to stack the Winchester in front and use it some more.
I haven't had any 45-75 loads tested.

[Grizzly Adams]

Howdy Grizzly,
45-70. I use it in a 1881 Marlin maunufactured in 1886. It's been my primary rifle for over 15 years now. I'm going to stack the Winchester in front and use it some more.
I haven't had any 45-75 loads tested.

Thanks, Harve.

[Grizzly Adams]

Doc,
Thank you for your data.

Jubal,
Likewise, thank you for your data.  In a previous post I noted that the .45-60 cartridge with a 300 gr. bullet (seating depth .40") has the same capacity as a .45-70 catridge with a  405 gr. bullet (seating depth .63").
The Lyman cast bullet handbook shows a loading in the .45-70 with 28.5 grs. IMR 4198 developing only 13,900 C.U.P. with a 420 gr. bullet. There could be a slightly different burn rate between your lot of 4198 and the lot that Lyman used, but since your chronographed your load at 1,315 f.p.s., your load should be plenty safe.

Regarding accuracy with b.p., if you tried the SWISS brand you just might find that you would achieve better accuracy since the fouling is softer allowing for more accurate repeating shots.  Schuetzen BP would likely be better in your application than Goex but probably not quite as good as SWISS.  SPG would be a good lube to use. 

w44wcf     

Jubal Wilson wrote on Dec 29:

"Since June I have done a lot of testing with different loads and here are some of my findings.  In the 45-60 using the 321 grain RCBS 45-300 GC and H4198 if I use the 40% rule as a starting point i.e. 24 grains there is insufficient pressure developed to seal the case mouth against the chamber and therefore get smoke marks half way down the case.  At 26 grains there is still not enough pressure to seal the case and there is still a lot of smoke on the cases.  At 28 grains there is only an occasional case with black marks and at 30 grains there are never any black marks."


I was gone for most of the end of December and was away from the forum for most of that period.  In any case, I have been giving this some thought, so I put together some loads and shoot them over a Chrono.

All loads fired in a Cimmie 1876, 45-60, 22 inch barrel.

First, I tried H4198:
 
Powder - H4198, 25 grains
Case - WW, shortened to 1.89
Primer - WLR
Bullet - #457191, 305grain

12 shot string with average of 1263.3 fps.
High:  1336.7fps
Low:  1089.3fps
SD:    77.9
ES:    247.4

The chrono results pretty much tell the story.

Next, I tried H4895, a powder that has not been mentioned, but is often used in loading for the Trapdoor Springfield and other "weak" actions.  It also seemed a good candidate because it is a bit slower than H4198, and, Hodgdon "reports that 4895 can be loaded to as little as 3/5ths of maximum and still be effiicient." The suggested starting load for the 45-70 with a 300 grain cast bullet is 45.0 grains (14,400 CUP).  The maximum for the 45-70 is 51 grains (15,500 CUP). 

I reduced this to 35.5 grains H4895, as a starting load for for the 45-60 .

Powder - H4895, 35.5 grains
Case - WW, shortened to 1.89
Primer - WLR
Bullet - #457191, 305grain 

12 shot string with an average of 1316.3
High:  1328.5
Low:   1304.0
SD:     17.3
ES:      24.5

This load shot a bit under 3.0 inches at 100 yards with open sights and my old eyes.  Very pleasant load in terms of recoil.

Both of these loads were well within the BP velocity envelope for the 1876.  Both of these loads are safe in my rifle.

This data has not been tested by anyone other than me.  I am only reporting my experience with it, in my rifle,  and I am not recommending its use by anyone.  If you use this data, you do so at your own risk!  It is presented here for discussion purposes only!