Smokeless in '76 Clones

[Grizzly Adams]

Then we have a "truce". All have saved face and are still friends. 

P.S.  I'll admit I was skeptical of a forum for the '76 but it will be a an excellent resource to refer neophytes to just like the Spencer Forum. 

Of course!  This is a place where gentlemen discuss issues knowing that it is ok to disagree - as gentlemen!

[Hobie]

Delmonico,

I am well aware of the concepts mentioned regarding breach thrust (particularly in Contenders, some cartridges for which I've reloaded) and while my intention is not one of disrespect towards you, I would submit that I believe our level of experience is very similar.  So when I ask for a reference, I mean a printed reference as I'd like to read it.   

Fox Creek Kid,

I don't think anyone here has ever supported the idea of using the pressure signs commonly referred to by shooters of those new fangled bolt actions using cartridges working at pressures of 65K+ PSI. 

On the other hand some of us recognize that it is inevitable that BP (not being worshiped by most folks) might be in short supply, difficult to acquire or even forbidden and yet, contrarians that we must be to buy and  shoot these guns, we might still want to shoot and use what is still an expensive firearm.  That leaves us with precious few options, which we must explore.   Why would we not be friends?   

[Delmonico]

Well Hobie I guess your going to have to go digging for it like I have over the years, remember a lot of this is basic simple physics.  A good start would be Hatcher's Notebook, PO Akley's handloading guide, Get some of Dean Grenells books, I don't have the formula for figuring kienetic energy with me here at work, if I have time between customers I could Google it.  A lot of this information has been covered in recent years in Handloader magazine and most up to date loading manuals cover it in some depth.  The information is out there if you do a little looking.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Hobie, Mike D. said: 

For a number of years my standard go-to load for my original .45-60 was 32 grains of IMR 4198 behind a 300 grain bullet of  hard cast and jacketed design. There were NO incidents or pressure signs with this load. With all that I have read on this thread, the gun should have been severely damaged by this heavy load, but that was not the case at all.

Are you reading all the posts?

On the other hand some of us recognize that it is inevitable that BP (not being worshiped by most folks) might be in short supply, difficult to acquire or even forbidden and yet, contrarians that we must be to buy and shoot these guns, we might still want to shoot and use what is still an expensive firearm.

I guess I just can't fathom why anyone would want to shoot anything but real BP in 19th century style weapons. ANYONE can order BP from http://www.powderinc.com/ in as small an order as a mere five lbs. No excuse there. BP is far easier to clean then "smokeyless" powder. No need for mind altering chemicals. The biggest problem I see is ignorance. By ignorance I do not mean stupidity. Far from it. Simply that many people fear what they do not understand. "It stinks". "It fouls". Well, yeah. That's the point. To experience the ENTIRE concept of history and experience what our forefathers knew. Shooting smokeless in these type weapons is like making a horse eat rocket fuel.

I'll share a story with you. I saw a fella tell a guy at an NCOWS shoot once "well, if you hate BP then maybe you need to get back up there behind the line with the women and children."

[Crotchety Old Grouch]

I'm not an expert on internal ballistics but it seems to me that the same bullet pushed by the same powder contained in cases with the same capacity will generate the same pressure.  Based on this assumption here is how I work up my loads:

  The basic load data came from 45-70 data listed in the Lyman "Cast Bullet Handbook" minus 10%. I came up with the 10% figure by comparing the case capacities of 45-70 and 45-75 cases. According to info I found on the net the average case capacity for 45-70 seems to be 81.05 grns of water. My 348 45-75 cases average 71.5 grns, (88.2% of the 45-70) and my Jamison cases 76.1 ( 93.9%). I split the difference at 10%. Sixgun Shorty told me that the working pressure of the new 76's was 20,000 CUP so my goal was to stay below that.. So I find a load using the bullet and powder I want to use that generates around 17,000CUP of less and reduce it by 10%.  That is my MAX load.  My starter load is at least 10% below that.,

The above fire formed .348 case capacity came from cases that had been fired once or twice.  I recently measure the capacity of cases that have been fired more than 5 or 6 times and found the average capacity had increased to 76.66...  grains of water.  Just goes to show how tough these .348 cases are.

[Delmonico]

COG, you are dealing with bottle neck vs slighly tapered case.  The slowing down of partly burned and unburned powder as it goes through the bottle neck raises pressure, how much, your guess.

[Hobie]

I guess I just can't fathom why anyone would want to shoot anything but real BP in 19th century style weapons. ANYONE can order BP from http://www.powderinc.com/ in as small an order as a mere five lbs. No excuse there.

In that statement you assume much about other folks' circumstances. 

BP is far easier to clean then "smokeyless" powder. No need for mind altering chemicals. The biggest problem I see is ignorance. By ignorance I do not mean stupidity. Far from it. Simply that many people fear what they do not understand. "It stinks". "It fouls". Well, yeah. That's the point. To experience the ENTIRE concept of history and experience what our forefathers knew.

Have you heard anyone discussing the subject consider the this.  It is not the topic of discussion.  Ignorance?  You presume to know much about me.  Perhaps you are my daddy and know more about me than I myself might know.   

In fact BP is neither easier or more difficult to clean after, it is simply different.  Some folks think some smokeless powders are "dirty".  The consideration in either case is not germane to the discussion.

That your primary focus is on experiencing what your forefathers knew isn't a consideration for me.

Shooting smokeless in these type weapons is like making a horse eat rocket fuel.

This is indicative of a prejudice.  Not everyone in this group or in an even broader range of shooters using these guns are living history fanatics.  There is a broader appeal for these guns.  That broader appeal might just attract more folks to the living history experience. 

I'll share a story with you. I saw a fella tell a guy at an NCOWS shoot once "well, if you hate BP then maybe you need to get back up there behind the line with the women and children."

That is simply condescending and likely out of context.  It certainly doesn't apply to this conversation. 

I will say it again, we are trying to expand the knowledge base in order to avoid what you so desperately fear, that others will use inappropriate loadings of smokeless powders in these firearms.  We know that not all BP subs or smokeless powders are inappropriate for shooting these reproductions and we seek to provide empirical evidence that certain loads are safe.  I know that your desired lab data will be available as soon as it can be compiled.  Perhaps that will mollify you.

Perhaps you don't intend to do so but your constant belittling of content without contribution of actual knowledge other than that you have assumed several of us don't know is not a constructive use of time.  Let's move on from fighting the use of other than holy black to the safe and sane use of smokeless powders...

This is NOT about BP vs Smokeless....

[Grizzly Adams]

Ok, gentlemen.  Step away from the keyboards and take a deep breath!

The water's warm, and there is room in the pool for everyone!

[Hobie]

Well Hobie I guess your going to have to go digging for it like I have over the years, remember a lot of this is basic simple physics.  A good start would be Hatcher's Notebook, PO Akley's handloading guide, Get some of Dean Grenells books, I don't have the formula for figuring kienetic energy with me here at work, if I have time between customers I could Google it.  A lot of this information has been covered in recent years in Handloader magazine and most up to date loading manuals cover it in some depth.  The information is out there if you do a little looking.

So what you're saying is that I have derived a different opinion from the same sources of information.  Interesting indeed.

[w44wcf]

I guess I just can't fathom why anyone would want to shoot anything but real BP in 19th century style weapons.

Because some of us like a little variety. Otherwise, life might get a little boring .   I definitely like shooting b.p. and I definitely  like shooting smokeless.    Smokeless powder also has a history in many of the original b.p. cartridges.

Regarding the faster pressure spike of the correct for the application smokeless vs. black, I am not so convinced that is true.  Otherwise, how could it be possible that b.p. will bump up a soft, undersized bullet whereas smokeless won't?  I have experienced that in my '73 which has an oversized groove dia. (.433").  Using .428" 50/1 lead/tin bullets, b.p.  shot them accurately, bumping them up to groove diameter and with smokeless......the bullets keyhole.

Interestingly, I ran a test a few years back in the .44-40 using a rifle with a 21" barrel and another with a 24" barrel.
Note the higher velocity increase with both 4227 & RL7 powder as compared to b.p. which would indicate that they would have the flatter pressure curve.

40 grs. Swiss FFG -
21" -1,273 f.p.s.
24" -1,292 f.p.s.
velocity increase 19 f.p.s.

16 grs. H4227 
21"- 1,177 f.p.s.
24"- 1,235 f.p.s.
velocity increase  58 f.p.s.

25 grs. RL-7
21" - 1,258 f.p.s.
24" - 1,367 f.p.s.
velocity increase 109 f.p.s.

For a more indepth discussion and a variance of opinions on the subject, go to this thread:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,16682.0.html

I'll be getting the pressure trace equipment come spring. Then we will find out for sure!

Happy Trails,
w44wcf

 

[john boy]

Gents, for comparison, here are some chronograph readings for my 45-75 using 348 resized brass - CCI LR primers and shot out of the 28" Chaparral '76 with the Lee 457-340F bullets with 1:20 alloy :

• 60grs Meteor FFg (a vintage 1971 powder) - 1144 fps
• 65grs Swiss 1.5 - 1326 fps
• and 23gr XMP5744 - 1145 fps

So, stick within the range of 23-24grs of 5744 and your rifle will be around to put it in your will!

[Roland]

Is it just me who has after reading Paco Kellys review on the 1873 in .357 mag, sat around and thought about the idea of an 1876 chambered in .357? It seems to me, that should allow the .357 to be loaded to it's highest potential easily enough with the beefier design of the '76.

I dunno, maybe it's just crazy talk, but the idea just appeals to me for some reason. I like a rifle that'd be overdesigned for the round it shoots, it means it'll last forever.

Maybe I am also missing the entire purpose of this gun? But then again I think it's a new angle to look at it from.

[Grizzly Adams]

Is it just me who has after reading Paco Kellys review on the 1873 in .357 mag, sat around and thought about the idea of an 1876 chambered in .357? It seems to me, that should allow the .357 to be loaded to it's highest potential easily enough with the beefier design of the '76.

I dunno, maybe it's just crazy talk, but the idea just appeals to me for some reason. I like a rifle that'd be overdesigned for the round it shoots, it means it'll last forever.

Maybe I am also missing the entire purpose of this gun? But then again I think it's a new angle to look at it from.

The action of the 1876 is much too long for the 357, without major modification to the carrier.  Strong, yes, but way too much rifle for the 357!

By the way, welcome to the fire, Roland.

[quigleysharps4570]

Is it just me who has after reading Paco Kellys review on the 1873

Always wanted to know...who the is Paco Kelly?

[w44wcf]

Always wanted to know...who is Paco Kelly?

Before he retired several years ago, he was a Law Enforcement officer......the only one I ever heard of that stopped a felons car with a .45-70 levergun!  In his lifetime he has hunted on several continents and was one of the early users of heavy cast bullet loads from both revolvers and leverguns.

About 20 years ago, he wrote a book entitled "An American Heritage - Leverguns ". It is a very interesting book on his experiences and some of the history of lever action rifles. Unfortunately, it is no longer in print but he currently has a new book on CD entitled "Lever and Handguns". The table of contents can be seen here:
http://www.leverguns.com/store/paco_book.htm

He owns the website: http://www.leverguns.com/
If you click on "articles" you will see a number of them he has written.

I have never met him personally but I have corresponded with him off and on over the years. He's quite an interesting and very knowledgeable fellow.

w44wcf   

[quigleysharps4570]

Before he retired several years ago, he was a Law Enforcement officer......the only one I ever heard of that stopped a felons car with a .45-70 levergun!

A rare deed in this day and age...my hats off to him.

[Tommy tornado]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I am having a heck of a time finding Accurate's 5744 powder locally in Houston.  I think I am going to just load BP until I can find some. 

[quigleysharps4570]

You're gonna be well above the 1300fps load with that one. 

[john boy]

I think I am going to try loading up some .45-60 loads with about 44 grains of 3031.

Tommy - NO!
The 44gr 3031 you're going to try is for the 40-65 Winchester! not the 45-60

For the Winchester 45-60, Cartridges of the World lists 300 lead - IMR 4198 25gr - 1450 fps
4198 has a burn rate of 86 fastest
3031 has a burn rate of 97 fastest
5744 has a burn rate of 78 fastest
Your should be loading in the range of 25-28grs of 3031 using a 300gr bullet

Here's hoping you have some reference books or the 44grs of 3031 was a typo cause that would be a real dangerous charge

[quigleysharps4570]

My one smokeless load for the 45-70 is 45grs. of 3031...pushes the 535gr. Postell along at 1600fps.
I sure wouldn't want to see what would happen with that charge and a 300gr. bullet in the 45-60.