Smokeless in '76 Clones

[quigleysharps4570]

In bp,,would 2f be the preminum choice for the '76 calibres ?

You'll just have to play and see what your rifle likes I'm betting.

[Deadeye Don]

Grizzly,   The link worked fine for me.  Ok I purchased smokeless 45-60 rounds from TENX made specifically for the 76.  I feel very safe with these as I trust Richards ability to put out a good safe product.  I think as long as you keep the loads to the typical "cowboy" loads you wont have to worry.  The modern replicas are made from modern steel too.   I may well get BP rounds for my reloads when the time comes just because I kind of like them and not because I dont feel safe with smokeless.   

I am no expert, but thats my take on the situation.  Regards.  Deadeye.

[w44wcf]

Grizzly,
Thank you for the link / data.

quigleysharps4570,
Note that the factory load listed in the "Cartridges of The World" is 1,315 f.p.s.  In 1910, Winchester made changes to their catalogued velocities for many of their cartridges. The velocity for the .45-60 was increased from 1,271 f.p.s. (1899 cat. referenced by MLV) to 1,315 f.p.s. beginning in 1910.

Regarding the 1,450 f.p.s. smokeless loading,  I don't know where they got that data, but it exceeds the 40% of b.p.rule of thumb with 4198. Also, there is a good chance that a kapok filler was used (which would increase velocity and pressure) since that was in general use back then.  As MLV indicated, a chronograph is a very good tool to use. I would not try to exceed b.p. velocities with smokeless in these old cartridges.

w44wcf


   

[w44wcf]

To try to "guess" on nitro powders is foolish, just because it burns like this in one round, don't mean it will in a different round

.

I would agree if using faster burning smokeless powders but will respectfully disagree when it comes to 4198. The 40% rule (on cartridges up to 90 grs. b.p. capacity) has been around since at least the 1940's and has been quoted and used by a number of different reliable sources.

Modern day 5744 was developed as a smokeless replacement for b.p. It is similar in burning rate to 4198.  Note that MLV ended up with 24 grs. as a duplicate to the 60 gr. b.p. loading.  Interestingly, 60 x 40% = 24 grs. 

w44wcf

[Marshal Deadwood]

I do not think I have seen anyone yet advocating the idea of pushing these rifles beyond their limits, only talk on parrell coversions to nitro based on blackpowder velocities and pressues.

I am most interested , especially in the appalactions to a hunting rifle, of these conversions. I do like to see the animal all the way thur the shot as most of time it is of importance to see the effect of ones shot.

I am not suggesting that bp is wrong, I actually perfer it for most shooting. However there is a lot to be said for a 'safe' smokeless conversion to a hunting round.

I too would like to know the 'data' on these 'blown up' '76win rifles.

My guess is common sence was totally abandoned.

MD

[w44wcf]

In bp,,would 2f be the preminum choice for the '76 calibres ?

In the 1882 WInchester catalog, they recommend both FG and FFG depending on the manufacturer.
All of the manufacturers referenced are no longer in business.  

A few years ago we tested a compressed load of 60 grs. by weight of Goex FFG under a 300 gr. cast bullet (457191) in my friends original .45-60 '76. It averaged right around 1,300 f.p.s.

w44wcf  

[w44wcf]

Posted by: Marshal Deadwood 
Insert Quote
I too would like to know the 'data' on these 'blown up' '76win rifles.
My guess is common sence was totally abandoned.

I would agree, common sense was totally abandonded.....too much fast burning smokeless powder .

Speaking of a '76 failure, here's a post dated 11/1/04 by colt 1849 (gunsmith) on the Leverguns forum   

Had the opportunity to look at a Winchester 1876 that had a serious over charge of smokeless shot through it, causing a complete separation of the case and head. Barrel right at the chamber area was blown out at the bottom, about 3 inches of the bottom half of the barrel was in pieces. This caused a secondary detonation of the cartridge in the mag tube. Mag tube had a "banana peel" split the first few inches, then split along the top seam for about 6 inches. Forend was completely shattered, what remained was toothpicks. Frame had split & expanded in the barrel threaded area to almost the lifter area.
What did surprise me as that the links held with no measurable distortion or damage.

Understand that the shooter walked away from this mishap.
Someone turned a $4000 gun into scrap very quickly 

w44wcf

[Delmonico]

The IMR series of powders are more friendly being a single base, but one must remember that 4198 is still fairly fast burning.  Fast burning powders give a faster pressure spike which increases case head thrust, which in turn puts more stress on the locking mechanism, exactly what a toggle link does not need.  Double base powders of which 5744 is one, get more hairy in a hurry than single base powders.  I believe the NG content of it is about 25%, don't have the figure handy, but I do remember it being one of the highest or highest NG content of any canister powders. 

Myself if I were going to venture this way on any BP round that loading data is not been lab tested for, I'd start with IMR 4831 and see if the velocity made the grade.  BTW the IMR pamphlet has loading data for rounds you'd never think of using that powder in and the other of the slower powders.  Study the pressures some of these loads develop, interesting and remember, this is lab tested data.  They even have 4831 data for 22 Hornet and 45-70. 

Powders that are really too slow for a case will really drop pressures, even better it's impossible to put in a double charge.  And of course the pressure spike is slower.  I'm doing some of this with a 22 Hornet made on a case hardened Low Wall, I'm running half normal pressures and only lost about 150 fps or less than 10%.  The Low-Wall is safe for a Hornet, but why not give it a break since the action is 107 years old.  (BTW it was rebarreled in 1947 so I didn't do it.)

[Hobie]

If your're staying at BP velocity...I'm wanting to see some specific data on what smokeless powder blew any of those rifles up.
My 1969 Cartridges of the World is showing a 1450fps loading for the 45-60 with smokeless...so what's the deal?

Was Mr. Barnes or Mr. Amber the editor of that one?

[Delmonico]

If your're staying at BP velocity...I'm wanting to see some specific data on what smokeless powder blew any of those rifles up.
My 1969 Cartridges of the World is showing a 1450fps loading for the 45-60 with smokeless...so what's the deal?

The same velocity as factory rounds does not always mean nearly equal pressures, You could duplicate factory loads in a 460 Weatherby with Bullseye, if you could get the danged brass and the rifle to hold together.

[Hobie]

Did somebody answer my question as to how a spike (the maximum) is more a spike one way or another?  I just read the entire topic and missed it.  As noted, in the .45-70, the maximum pressure (the spike) was actually less with 4198 than with BP.  

I'm very much in agreement with John vis-a-vis IMR or H 4198 and the 40% rule.  It has held true over a wide variety of arms and cartridges from that era.  I should note that nobody I've known shooting these or originals are trying to come up with Snooky Williams HV loads.  Everyone wants to do no more than duplicate factory BP velocities.  

[Delmonico]

That means max pressure is reached faster, this puts more velocity on the case moving moving back out of the chamber and puts more strain on the locking mechanism of the firearm.  This is called case head thrust.  Kinetic energy goes up on a mulitple of 4 for every time you double the velocity.  In other words the case head slams the bolt much harder.

[Hobie]

What is your source on that?

[Mike D.]

This is an interesting subject and the pros and cons of loading smokeless powder in toggle link action rifles can be discussed ad nauseum. For a number of years my standard go-to load for my original .45-60 was 32 grains of IMR 4198 behind a 300 grain bullet of  hard cast and jacketed design. There were NO incidents or pressure signs with this load. With all that I have read on this thread, the gun should have been severely damaged by this heavy load, but that was not the case at all.

[Delmonico]

What is your source on that?

Long study (Most of 30 years) on ballistics as a hobby, many sources, spent a few years of doing some comercial reloading for a friend who was licensed and insured.  Call any powder company and have them put one of their lab guys on the phone if you want, they will tell you the same thing. 

Case head thrust is also increased by the surface area of the case.  A good example of how that works is TC Chambers the Contender in 223, a full 55-60,000 psi load, they also chamber it in or did, in 45-70, guess what, trapdoor data only is recomended. 

Also check the max SAMMI pressures allowable for the different gauges of shotguns, the little 410 is allowed higher pressures that the 10 mag, each larger gauge has a lower pressure ceiling, except the 3 1/2 inch 12 gauge which is only chambered in very strong shotguns.

I have one my desk here at work a copy of the #7 Speer Manual, Copyright 1966, there is an article in it by none other than George Nonte on loading most of these rounds including data, which I will not post.  (If anyone wants it, either find a copy or sneak in here and copy it from mine when I'm with a customer, then I'm in no way responsible. Pen and paper will be laying on the counter)   

Even has a formula for "guessing" how much 2400, 4227 or 4198 to use when working up a load.  George did not have the information now avalible theough the use of computors and strain gauges.  One reason if you come on in with a copy of your latest Speer manual, I'm willing to bet most loads with the same caliber, bullet and powder have be lowered slightly.  This system shows many things about pressure spikes that were undectacable with the old copper crusher and lead crusser methods.

(Not to make fun of anyone's knowledge, but if none of this makes any sense, you need a good library of books on loading to do some serious study.)

Also I bet a call to Speer and asking them if you should use Mr. Nonte's data will get a flat out "NO."

Case head thrust is something few ever take in to consideration.  Also a case with a very straight body will have less thrust on the bolt face than one with a lot of taper.  BP rounds for these rifles have a fair amount of taper in the body, something to consider.

[Fox Creek Kid]

There were NO incidents or pressure signs with this load.

Which means nothing. Over pressure symptons rarely manifest themselves with signs such as blown primers, swelling, etc. The gun writer Rick Jamison had an article on this several years back whereas in a controlled situation he deliberately loaded rounds in modern high powered rifles that were "blue pill" & beyond. He had NO "symptoms" as aforementioned. In other words the bolt opened and the cases looked & measured normal. Moral of the story: visual comparison means absolutely NOTHING. You can only tell true pressure under laboratory conditions with strain gauges as well as other state of the art equipment.

Why don't we all reach an agreement? Some of us are "purists" and wish to use these weapons as they were originally designed as well as not wanting to "push the envelope" on a 19th century design. Others, for whatever their own personal reasons, have a disdain for real BP and will use any means possible to avoid using it. Period.

[Delmonico]

Any round that does not show pressure signs has to be a dud, even if the bullet stuck in the barrel there were signs of pressure.  Excess pressure that is a differnt story.  Just because a gun don't blow up or a case rupture or a primer blow out does not mean the pressures are not excessive in that firearm.  It is the design of the lock-up of a toggle link that is the weak point, not the metal monern replicas are made of.  Anyone who wants to shoot Nitro powders in these, would be better to wait till proper lab tested data is availble for them. 

Myself I could care less if one shoots Nitro loads in them, as long as they are safe, but unless you own a ballistic lab and know how to use it, how do you really know they are safe unless the data has been generated in a ballistic's lab? 

[Grizzly Adams]

Why don't we all reach an agreement? Some of us are "purists" and wish to use these weapons as they were originally designed as well as not wanting to "push the envelope" on a 19th century design. Others, for whatever their own personal reasons, have a disdain for real BP and will use any means possible to avoid using it. Period.

Now what would be the fun in that!?   Actually,  the real issue here is the difference between the BP purist and the non-BP traditionalist who love the old arms, but don't cotton to the Holy Black.  Personally, I shoot and enjoy both, as I believe they both have their place. 

That said, I don't hear anyone here suggesting that we "push the envelope" past what is sensible in terms of the design.  This is a 19th century design and that must be kept clearly in mind!  While one can, and do,  push the BP envelope with a design like the Winchester 1886 with nickel  steel barrel, doing so with the toggle link actions is just plain dangerous.

By the way, I shoot Frontier Cartridge Duelist, and my match guns have not seen any smokeless in 8 years!  My Sharps does not know the stuff exists!

[Fox Creek Kid]

Then we have a "truce". All have saved face and are still friends. 

P.S.  I'll admit I was skeptical of a forum for the '76 but it will be a an excellent resource to refer neophytes to just like the Spencer Forum. 

[Delmonico]

Griz, I will say this out loud rather than in a PM.  I would not allow any loading data for Nitro loads to be posted unless they were from a known lab tested source.