Smokeless in '76 Clones

[Fox Creek Kid]

Errors such as this are the reason data that has not been extrapolated nor tested in a bona fide lab should NOT be posted here lest someone gets seriously hurt. Don't dance in a minefield.    I would motion for Griz to strike all smokeless data until (if ever) there are bona fide lab results.

[quigleysharps4570]

I disagree...if he "hadn't" of posted what he was gonna use...it wouldn't of got caught and he would've been in trouble.

[Grizzly Adams]

Tommy - NO!
The 44gr 3031 you're going to try is for the 40-65 Winchester! not the 45-60

For the Winchester 45-60, Cartridges of the World lists 300 lead - IMR 4198 25gr - 1450 fps
4198 has a burn rate of 86 fastest
3031 has a burn rate of 97 fastest
5744 has a burn rate of 78 fastest
Your should be loading in the range of 25-28grs of 3031 using a 300gr bullet

Here's hoping you have some reference books or the 44grs of 3031 was a typo cause that would be a real dangerous charge

+1.  I also believe that 44 grains of 3031 in the 45-60 is not safe.  I would not use it in my rifles. 

Gentlemen, as of this date, the only data with a track record for any of these calibers is the data published in Cartridges of the World by Fred Barnes, using 4198, and the the work done with 5744 which is based on extrapilated, and as of yet, untested data.   Note:  This is not an endorsement of that data.  Use at your own risk.   This board is not a reloading manual, and should not be used as such!

From the User Agreement:

DISCLAIMER RELOADING:  We allow members the exchange of reloading ideas, techniques and loads. However, under NO circumstances does the publication of any specific load(s) on the board indicate a recommendation of data published. The caution(s) mentioned in the reloading manuals of starting 10% below any recommended load(s) and working your way up apply in spades! Both experienced and inexperienced reloaders, PLEASE consult the available commercial reloading manuals. It is easy to make mistakes when typing, so view any data published in a post with common sense and suspicion... If it doesn't sound right, it probably isn't! CasCity.com assumes NO responsibility for any loads published.

The internet is wide open, and reloading data can be found on many sites.  Some is good and some is very dangerous.  I is up to the individual to use extreme caution in using information found on this site or any other site. 

There are a number of very knowledgeable folks on this board.  Ask questions of them, and do your research!

My personal recommendation to folks new to this model, and these calibers, is to stick to black powder loads, or commercially available smokeless loads only!

[w44wcf]

I'm not an expert on internal ballistics but it seems to me that the same bullet pushed by the same powder contained in cases with the same capacity will generate the same pressure.  Based on this assumption here is how I work up my loads:

   The basic load data came from 45-70 data listed in the Lyman "Cast Bullet Handbook" minus 10%. I came up with the 10% figure by comparing the case capacities of 45-70 and 45-75 cases. According to info I found on the net the average case capacity for 45-70 seems to be 81.05 grns of water. My 348 45-75 cases average 71.5 grns, (88.2% of the 45-70) and my Jamison cases 76.1 ( 93.9%). I split the difference at 10%. Sixgun Shorty told me that the working pressure of the new 76's was 20,000 CUP so my goal was to stay below that.. So I find a load using the bullet and powder I want to use that generates around 17,000CUP of less and reduce it by 10%.  That is my MAX load.  My starter load is at least 10% below that.,

The above fire formed .348 case capacity came from cases that had been fired once or twice.  I recently measure the capacity of cases that have been fired more than 5 or 6 times and found the average capacity had increased to 76.66...  grains of water.  Just goes to show how tough these .348 cases are.

Crotchety Old Grouch,
Thank you for your informative post.  If you were to load unprimed cases  with 350 gr. bullets to their proper depth and then put water into them though the primer hole using a hypodermic needle syringe, and then measured the water capacity (weight of ctg with water - weight without), that would give you a closer indication what what the true capacities are.

Food for though anyway.

w44wcf

[Hoof Hearted]

Very interesting discussion here folks!
I, for one, long for that free society where we all get to take risks, assume responsibilty, and not get told by others what we can or can't do That being said please don't get too excited and tell everyone that they have to remain inside the safety bubble some of us have been careful and taken risks. If I want to push the limits and wear out my rifle, well heck it is MY rifle. I for one would not publish that data or recommend it to anyone else (by the way a well fitted 1876 in good shape with a barrell of modern steel should is pretty darn strong, it's just a shame the "tolerances" vary so much in these rifles). Thank god we had pioneers like Elmer Keith and PO Ackley

One thing I would like to point out here is this (I mean no disrespect Crotchety ):
COG said above.......I'm not an expert on internal ballistics but it seems to me that the same bullet pushed by the same powder contained in cases with the same capacity will generate the same pressure.  Based on this assumption here is how I work up my loads:

This assumption misses a very important fact. That being case head size has a large bearing on rearward thrust as well as taper and shape (ie; bottleneck). I once read a study on these effects where various case types were fired in an unlocked breech! Was very enlightening

[Tommy tornado]

This is why I am reading up on this stuff before doing any actual reloading with anything other than Black Powder.  I sure wish the powder companies would hurry up and release reliable data for the .45-60 cartridge.  Thanks for the warning.  As I stated earlier I am still searching for smokeless load data other than Accruate's 5744 at 24.0 grains.

[Delmonico]

OK, just for fun>  How many here know there is also a 40-60 Marlin round that is not the same as the 40-60 Winchester round?



It's Marlin's version of the 40-65, just a loading with a heavier bullet that used a bit less powder.  Yet it is just one of many things that can confuse someone who really hasn't studied old rounds.

Some things just don't make sense and gussing at smokeless pressures is one of them.

I saw the thread on the Winchester tests on the 76, heck if you've never studied deep in this stuff, you should see what some bolt guns will do, there was a Jab Arisaka chambered in 6.5-06 back in the 50's and some fool shot a lot of 30-06 ammo in it before they figured out why it recoiled so much.  The rifle took it, don't mean I would push one, remember the 76 and many of these old rifles don't have the ability to vent gasses like a lot of modern rifles do.  Ain't much about them to stop scattered parts from hitting your face with one, but if you want to risk it, go ahead.

Rounds in any rifle that are only some over pressure will in most cases not blow the gun up, but they will open up the headspace, excessive headspace will often in time cause a case to fail, that's when the poop hits the fan.

[john boy]

OK, just for fun>  How many here know there is also a 40-60 Marlin round that is not the same as the 40-60 Winchester round?

Nice write up of this caliber in Cartridges of the World (believe all the editions) with some loading data too

[Mike D.]

44/3031 has been used to some degree of success in the .45-75 caliber Chaparral 1876. It produces a moderate 1600 FPS with less than 20K PSI pressure. If tried in a .45-60, it will become somewhat of a bomb, with unknown and probably catastrophic results. The maximum load I used in my original .45-60 was 32 grains 3031, my standard was 30 grains.

[Grizzly Adams]

FYI, this is an e-mail I recieved in response to my request for smokeless reloading data for the 45-60 and 45-75 calibers.

I think it is a good indication of the "track record" that is being extablished for 5744 in the 1876 chamberings.

"Unfortunately we do not have any specific lab tested data on these calibers.

(See notes 1.1 and 2.1below).

However, we can provide you with some guideline, based on calculations and information from other sources.

Caliber:      .45-60 Winchester (1.89")

Case length:         1.89"

Case Capacity:     ca 4.252cc/65.5grains of H2O

Barrel length:      26"

COL (max):           2.15"

Powder:           Accurate -- 5744.

Bullet weight:   300-325 grains.

Start load: 22.0 grains (1250 – 1350 ft/p/sec)

Maximum load: 26.0 grains (1400 – 1500 Ft/p/sec).

Bullet weight:   350 grains.

Start load: 20.0 grains (1150 – 1250 ft/p/sec)

Maximum load: 24.0 grains (1300 – 1400 Ft/p/sec).

Bullet weight:   400 grains.

Start load: 18.0 grains (1075 – 1175 ft/p/sec)

Maximum load: 22.0 grains (1200 – 1300 Ft/p/sec).

Caliber:      .45-75 Winchester.

Case length:         1.895"

Case capacity:      5.189cc/79.92 grains of water

Pressure level:    <18000 psi.

Barrel length:      28"

Powder:           Accurate -- 5744.

Bullet weight:  300 grains.

Start load: 27.0 grains (1475 – 1575 Ft/p/sec)

Maximum load: 31.0 grains (1650 – 1750 Ft/p/sec)

Bullet weight:  330 grains.

Start load: 24.0 grains (1300 – 1400 Ft/p/sec)

Maximum load: 28.0 grains (1500 – 1600 Ft/p/sec)

Bullet weight:  350 grains.

Start load: 21.0 grains (1100 – 1200 Ft/p/sec)

Maximum load: 25.0 grains (1300 – 1400 Ft/p/sec)

Bullet weight:  400 grains.

Start load: 17.0 grains (900 – 1000 Ft/p/sec)

Maximum load: 21.0 grains (1100 – 1200 Ft/p/sec)



NOTES:

It' important to note that:

Whenever Western Powders Inc do not test, and have actual data, on a particular caliber or caliber/bullet combination, we may in some cases provide some guideline. This information will be based on various procedures and calculations, or from other very reliable sources.

1.        SAFETY is our prime concern therefore:

1.1.   The loading data is conservative, especially regarding the minimum or start load to ensure a safe baseline to work from.

1.2.   The safety margin built into the start load might be more than the customary 10%.

2.        We strongly recommend.

2.1.   To always start at the recommended minimum "START" load.

2.2.   If at all possible, measure the velocity.

2.3.   Contact us again with the velocity data, so that we can verify, and correlate with our calculated/estimated data. The data should also be compared, with the typical velocity levels accepted in the industry, for that particular caliber-bullet weight combination."

The last line is important, as it reinforces what we have been saying in regards to working up safe loads.  Stay within the "typical velocity levels" for the caliber - BP velocities in this case, and verify what your doing with a chrono.

[Hoof Hearted]

Grizz

I received that same info from them back just avter they took over Accurate Powders.
Their story hasn't changed much in quite a while (wish they would do some more testing)

One thing to note here is that they do NOT differintiate between CAST and JACKETED bullets and we all know they produce different results (both in velocity and pressure)!

Great job posting that here! And a big HOORAW for being such an adept moderator

[Grizzly Adams]

One thing to note here is that they do NOT differentiate between CAST and JACKETED bullets and we all know they produce different results (both in velocity and pressure)!

Excellent point!

[Hobie]

I find it interesting that the Western Powder had the same caveats I've been repeating.   

Whenever Western Powders Inc do not test, and have actual data, on a particular caliber or caliber/bullet combination, we may in some cases provide some guideline. This information will be based on various procedures and calculations, or from other very reliable sources.

1.        SAFETY is our prime concern therefore:

1.1.   The loading data is conservative, especially regarding the minimum or start load to ensure a safe baseline to work from.

1.2.   The safety margin built into the start load might be more than the customary 10%.

2.        We strongly recommend.

2.1.   To always start at the recommended minimum "START" load.

2.2.   If at all possible, measure the velocity.

2.3.   Contact us again with the velocity data, so that we can verify, and correlate with our calculated/estimated data. The data should also be compared, with the typical velocity levels accepted in the industry, for that particular caliber-bullet weight combination."

[Hell-Er High Water]

Here is some additional information on 5744 powder that I got from Accurate Arms (before they were sold) in 2004 when I started loading this powder in the 50-70 Gov't cartridge.  I was getting excellent accuracy but was also getting unburned granules of powder left in the barrel.

This answer was provided by Johan Loubser, Ballistic Lab Manager, Accurate Powders, Mc Ewen, TN on 25 may 2004.



Special note on AA (XMP) 5744
Although, this is a powder recommended for reduced/low performance loads, it cannot be completly efficient (clean burning) at very low pressure/performance levels of <15000 psi.  It is still a modern, high density, smokeless powder, with limitations regarding complete combustion at very low chamber pressures.  With nitro-cellulose based "Modern" powders, the burn rate and pressure are directly proportional.  This means that some level of un-burnt powder will be present, constituting the remainder of some powder granules.  This cannot be improved with primers or crimp etc, the only way to eliminate this, is an increase in chamber pressure.

XMP5744 is a rather special and unique product.  It is a fast burning double base "hybrid" powder, having the typical chemical composition of handgun powders i.e. 20% NG - and the geometry of a typical extruded single perforated rifle powder.  This makes the powder very ignitable as well as bulky, which makes it ideal for low loading density applications, such as reduced loads on bottle neck rifle calibers, and low performance "straight case" designs, such as the old "blackpowder" calibers i.e. 45-70, 45-110, 50-110 etc.  The powder is insensitive to powder position, and there is no need for "fillers".  It will deliver consistent results at low performance levels.  Although there will be some unburnt powder (see paragraph above) the performance will remain consistent.

Method for calculating/determining a charge for loading XMP5744 powder for RIFLE calibers at reduced levels:  We have a very simple method to determine a reduced load on any caliber using XMP5744 powder.  Determine the maximum charge per volume, by filling the case to the base of the seated bullet.  Multiply that value by x 0.40 (40%).  That will be a good safe, reduced load that will produce velocities of between 40 and 50% of a full power load.  One can then load up to 48% for maximum lead bullet loads.



I checked my 45-75 cases (formed from 348 Winchester) and a charge to the base of my 335 grain seated bullet runs around 57.0 grains.  Using the figures quoted above by Mr. Loubser, this comes out quite close to the info received from Western Powders by Grizzly.

It seems that the same powder, from two different corporate owners, 3-1/2 years apart still generates the same basic response.

Hope that this of interest.

HHW

[Tommy tornado]

I realize now I had the wrong info. on a 45-60 load using IMR 3031.  I was looking at Trapdoor .45-70 loads from the Speer Manual which are a bit hotter than my Lyman 47th edition manual.  Out of a Trapdoor the Lyman manual has a starting load of IMR 3031 as 29.0 grains with a velocity of 1056 fps and CUP pressure of 7,600.  The max. load is 37.o grains of IMR 3031 powder at 1435 velocity and CUP pressure of 16,800 using the HP 336 grain Lyman mould.  In looking at these numbers do you think it would be safe to use a load of about 30 to 34 grains of IMR 3031 in my .45-60 cal. Uberti 1876 Rifle?  I am wondering if I would get similar results.  Again sorry if I got some of your blood up with my eariler post.  I was looking at a reloading manual for ideas on what smokeless powders to use in my .45-60 reloading.  I really want to be safe and not blow myself or a $1200 rifle up.

[Grizzly Adams]

I realize now I had the wrong info. on a 45-60 load using IMR 3031.  I was looking at Trapdoor .45-70 loads from the Speer Manual which are a bit hotter than my Lyman 47th edition manual.  Out of a Trapdoor the Lyman manual has a starting load of IMR 3031 as 29.0 grains with a velocity of 1056 fps and CUP pressure of 7,600.  The max. load is 37.o grains of IMR 3031 powder at 1435 velocity and CUP pressure of 16,800.  In looking at these numbers do you think it would be safe to use a load of about 30 to 34 grains of IMR 3031 in my .45-60 cal. Uberti 1876 Rifle?  I am wondering if I would get similar results.  Again sorry if I got some of your blood up with my eariler post.  I was looking at a reloading manual for ideas on what smokeless powders to use in my .45-60 reloading.  I really want to be safe and not blow myself or a $1200 rifle up.

Tommy, we don't mind you getting our attention, and it is good that you asked!  That's the way we like it!

I will leave the answer to your question regarding 3031 to someone that is more familiar with it.  I have never worked with it in any of these calibers.

[Hobie]

I realize now I had the wrong info. on a 45-60 load using IMR 3031.  I was looking at Trapdoor .45-70 loads from the Speer Manual which are a bit hotter than my Lyman 47th edition manual.  Out of a Trapdoor the Lyman manual has a starting load of IMR 3031 as 29.0 grains with a velocity of 1056 fps and CUP pressure of 7,600.  The max. load is 37.o grains of IMR 3031 powder at 1435 velocity and CUP pressure of 16,800.  In looking at these numbers do you think it would be safe to use a load of about 30 to 34 grains of IMR 3031 in my .45-60 cal. Uberti 1876 Rifle?  I am wondering if I would get similar results.  Again sorry if I got some of your blood up with my eariler post.  I was looking at a reloading manual for ideas on what smokeless powders to use in my .45-60 reloading.  I really want to be safe and not blow myself or a $1200 rifle up.

Go back and read Mike D.'s post re: his use of IMR 3031...

[quigleysharps4570]

Using 35 grs. of IMR 3031 and a 300 gr. Sierra HP...I'm showing 1300 fps. out of my 45-60.

[w44wcf]

Grizzly Adams, Hell-er High Water,
Thank you for the interesting posts!

I discovered something the other day....the .45-60 with a 300 gr. bullet (seating depth .40")  and the .45-70 with a 405 gr. bullet (seating depth .63") have the same case capacity because of the .23" further protrusion of the 405 gr. bullet into the .45-70 case. Interestingly, the case length difference between the .45-70 and .45-60 is the same .23" (2.110" - 1.880"). 

Accurate 5744 data for the .45-70 with a 405 gr bullet shows 24.7 grs. as a starting load and 27.5 grs. as max (18,000 p.s.i.) and that's with a bullet weighing 105 grs. more. (DO NOT load a 405 gr. bullet into a .45-60 case with .45-70 data!!)  

w44wcf

[Tommy tornado]

Has anybody actually used a 405 grain bullet in .45-60?  I wonder how much it would cut a Black Powder load down to?