58 Remington 50 Round BP Stress Test

[Silas McFee]

Howdy.  Rather than hijack another thread on this topic, which was raised, I started another one.

This past season I did an informal BP "stress test" on my 58 Remington with a Kirst Konverter.  The purpose of the test was to see if I could shoot the equivalent of a main match with all BP cartridge ammo and no cleaning of the gun.  I assume regular readers know about my familial relations to Dick Dastardly and friendship with Walt Kirst, but in case not, now you do.   We also know that you can shoot a weekend match worth of pistol and rifle work without cleaning your guns if you are shooting BP ammo and Big Lube bullets.  After I got a 58 Remington with Kirst Konverter, several people told me this was not supposed to work, and I would need to keep some Ballistol and cleaning supplies in my cart for periodic cleaning of this gun during a match, especially a long match.

I shot 50 rounds of cartridge BP ammo with no cleaning, spraying, or wiping of the gun.  Ammo was all Big Lube 45's and lube was a mixture of approximately 50/50 by weight of Crisco and the cheapest soy wax flakes I could find on the Gore-net.  Brass was a mixture of LC and Cowboy Special, but the bullet design is essentially the same with regards to lube quantity and type.  Shooting at a steel target about 15-20 yards (SASS rifle target from the match that day), I didn't see any appreciable loss in accuracy (I hit the stell almost every time).  I did notice the cylinder started to get a little stiff after the first 25 rounds or so, but every time I removed it to reload, that seemed to knock off enough crud to keep it going for another 5 shots.  In other words, it looked like fouling was accumulating, but the reload process was clearing enough of it for 5 more shots, every time I reloaded.  The cylinder also turned easier after reloading.  Muzzle stayed greasy after the first shot.

My theory, and this would be open to considerable debate, is that the soft lube is sprayed off the bullet and on the cylinder face (and down the bore and on muzzle) after every shot, and this keeps things soft enough to continue to function.  My bet is that any BP lube, if soft enough, is under enough pressure between the time the BP goes off and the bullet enters the barrel to push enough lube in there to keep a flat faced cylinder functioning.  When I was done with the 50 rounds, the cylinder face was also kind of greasy, not quite like the muzzle, but definitely not dry.

[Dick Dastardly]

I'll verify what Silas just wrote.  Also, Bushwack Jacksack shot some of that test.  We were all hitting that rifle target quite well.  Accuracy never fell off.

Nothing special has been done to that 58.  Nothing special was done to the Big Lube™ bullets.  This kind of result is very common with ROAs, but Silas had heard all bad news about the 58 and continued shooting with Holy Black.  As stated, this test removes any question of his 58 holding up to an entire 10 stage SASS match without need to clean to maintain function or accuracy.

It's all that lube splashing around and keeping things wet.  The fouling simply can't get a grip.

Now Silas, I'd like you to comment on the cleanup of that gun afterwards.

DD-DLoS

[Silas McFee]

Clean up was the usual 10-15 minutes, using Ballistol and water mized together with a bore snake.  I'm told it can be done faster, but I like to take my time.

[Arcey]

Thanks for the report, Silas. Always appreciate a man that puts his hands on it 'n does it then reports the results.

[Silver Creek Slim]

Silas,
Great report. I got a question though. Did ya lube the base pin 'fore ya started shootin'?

Slim

[Silas McFee]

I didn't specifically lube the base pin before the test, but I always give them a healthy coat of pure Ballistol when I clean and reassemble my pistols.  So to answer your question, yes, but not really? 

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Great report, thanks for posting.

I wish you had come up with something new, however:  what YOU found is simply what I have found regarding other guns - except I don't have a '58 with a conversion cylinder.  My '58 is pure C&B and my 1875 , which is fired using BigLube boolits - as well as my 1873 Colt - seem to echo your findings.

No new news here!    

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

My experience is different than yours. I find that the 1858 Remington design tends to bind up more quickly than a Colt, clone, or Ruger, shot with the exact same ammo loaded with the exact same Big Lube PRS 250 grain bullets lubed with SPG. I attribute this difference to the lack of a bushing on the front face of the Remmie cylinder. Without a bushing to deflect fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap away from the cylinder pin, my Remmies start to bind up after just a few cyliniders full.

Your theory is correct. The lube does get sprayed out of the barrel/cylinder gap along with the fouling. It does get deposited onto the face of the cylinder, and it does tend to stay relatively soft. But enough fouling gets blasted down onto the cylinder pin, that in my experience the gun starts to bind up anyway, despite the Big Lube bullet. You are probably correct that the act of removing the cylinder to load it may tend to knock off some of the fouling building up on the front face of the cylinder. When reloading a Cap & Ball cylinder one does not necessarily have to remove the cylinder to load it, so that part of reloading would not be present. But in my experience, the lack of a cylinder bushing overcomes all that lube on the bullet and the gun binds up anyway.

I have R&D cylinders in my Remmies, not Kirst, but I seriously doubt if the different brand has anything to do with it, neither one has a raised bushing on the front of the cylinder. I have two Remmies, one an old EuroArms import that I bought about 1975, the other a recent Uberti Stainless product. Both are equipped with R&D 45 Colt cylinders. My routine for shooting my Remmies includes wiping the cylinder face off with a damp rag everytime I remove the cylinder to unload and load it. While I'm at it I usually wipe off the cylinder pin because there will always be some fouling on the pin too. In my tests, if I shoot either one of my Remmies for two cylinders full (10 shots) without wiping off the cylinder face and cylinder pin, it starts to get hard to pull the hammer back because the cylinder is starting to bind. If I wipe them off every time, it is pretty trouble free. The wiping is not a big deal, just a quick swipe of the cylinder face and the pin with a damp rag is all that is needed. I already have the cylinder out of the gun anyway, so it is not any bother. But if I don't do it, they start to bind up. This is with both 45 Colt cartridges loaded to the gills with FFg and the 250 grain PRS bullet lubed with SPG AND 45 Schofield cartridges stuffed to the gills with FFg and the J/P-200 bullet lubed with SPG. Either way, if I don't wipe the cylinder faces down they start to bind up quickly. I have also cut narrow grooves on my cylinder pins to hold extra lube and the grooves have made no difference at all.

The fouling on my Remmies only affects their mechanical function, it does not affect accuracy. Big Lube bullets provide plenty of lube to keep fouling in the bore soft and moist, and accuracy is unaffected shooting an entire match without doing anything to the bore. But function of the mechanism is a different thing. I find that because of the bushingless cylinder design, my Remmies will bind up much more quickly than a Colt, Ruger, or clone using the exact same ammo. The Colts, clones, and Rugers will go through an entire 6, 8, or even 10 stage match without any attention at all, no binding and no loss of accuracy. As a matter of fact a few weeks ago I shot the Colts in a 6 stage match, put them away dirty for a week, took them out the following week and shot another 6 stage match with absolutely no cleaning at all before the match, and shot the second match with no binding or loss of accuracy.

It all has to do with the bushing on the front of the cylinder. If I don't wipe down the Remmies after two cylinders full, they start to bind up.

[Silas McFee]

Scientifically finding facts and prooving theories is a matter of hypothesis and repetition.  One test (or one study) prooves little more than something worked one time.

Without a doubt, the absense of the bushing on the cylinder causes excessive fouling and subsequent difficulties with 58's (and most other original CB designs) after repeated firing.  However, with the lube recipe I used (which is quite soft even at room temperature), BP did not cause enough fouling to make the gun not work, or seriously depreciate accuracy.  I suspect the Kirst vs R&D is irrelevant; Kirst is just what I own.  Maybe softer lubes mitigate fouling just enough to allow continuous use of these guns with Konversion cylinders?

A couple things for someone to test further:
1.  Different lubes of different "hardness"?
2.  The same lube as above, only with a Konversion cylinder with loading gate?  This would tell us if the removal of the cylinder for reloading is the determining factor in fouling mitigation.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

My lube is VERY soft.  That may be the main difference.

And a bushing helps, too.