Original bullet for the .45-75

[w44wcf]

Back in the late 1800's, Ideal Mfg'g. Co. (now Lyman) produced a bullet mold for the .45-75 Winchester.  It was a copy of the original bullet and was identified by the mold number 456192.  Lyman continued to produce this mold calling it the 457192 up until the mid 1970's, when it was discontinued.

The 457192 is intended to be used with black powder (or a sub) which supports the base of the bullet since the  crimp is positioned over the front driving band.  If used with smokeless, the bullet may be pushed into the case while in the magazine....not a good thing.



Because of the renewed interest in the .45-75, Lou Sellman, who is a Lyman distributor, contacted Lyman to see if they would make another run of the 457192  mold.  Lyman agreed if he placed an order for a minimum of 25 molds.

So far, 30 molds are spoken for.  Because of the initial response,  Lou ordered 45 molds which he expects to receive by no later than mid January.  

If you would be interested in a single cavity Lyman 457192 mold, please email Lou Sellman at
customcastbullets@yahoo.com
with your address so that he can let you know what the shipping charges will be.  Please add that to the price of the mold
($65.00) and send your  check made out to:
Custom Cast Bullets
2003 Ewingsmill Rd.
Coraopolis, PA 15108
phone: (412) 299-0412

Lou has a store on ebay with over 1,100 items. He does not want to run this
buy through the ebay store because of the additional expense involved.  If
you want to have a look, the address is:
http://stores.ebay.com/reloadersequipment

w44wcf
     

[Hobie]

I'm one of the 30 and sent Lou my check last week.  Thanks for all the hard work John!

[john boy]

Yes Folks - A Whole Lot of Thanks is Owing to John Kort and Lou Sellman that made this bullet possible, including all the time John spent compiling the commitment names for Lou, and their many telephone calls and emails back and forth together and the threads John put up on the various Forums.

  Let me give a little background how it all came into being:

• Ideal Handbook, 1949 - page 88 is the the 456192 bullet with only the words, "45-75 Winchester bullet"
• I called Mr Herrick, Lyman Director of Marketing requesting that there is a market for this bullet since Lyman also dusted off the cherry for the Ideal 40-60 mold.  He told me that many cherries were 'left' in the plant when Lyman moved in 1977 and it wouldn't be possible.  I didn't believe him.  I also wanted Lyman to re-introduce the Ideal 375166 bullet for the 38-55 which has the closest ballistics calculation using BP for a barrel of 1:18 twist
• Not giving up, I kept bugging Lyman and was told, 'if a 1000 telephone calls were received for the 457192, Lyman would consider re-introduction'
• John and I was discussing this whole Lyman episode at Ridgeway Rifle Club (we get together a couple of times each year there) while I was banging away with my '76.  He said, "Let me see what I can do.  I have a friend who is a Lyman Distributor!"

And the Wheels of Progress were put in motion to Lou Sellman (date line - October 2007)

• Lou called Lyman management, they agreed and were to use the 457122 cherry, then Lou got a call they were going to produce the mold using the Ideal 457192 cherry which is the Ideal 456192 cherry ... and the rest is History: (date line December 2008)

So, Lights On -Center Stage John and Take a Big Bow From All of Us!  Thank You! 

[CarverTripp]

I quess it pays to have friends in high places. Many thanks to those who worked hard on this. My check was sent last week, really looking forward to casting some up!
Carver

I ain't no Tom Horn, but I love my 76

[Grizzly Adams]

This is one you want boys!  Copy of the original, and in my experience, this bullet works very well in these rifles.

John, your work in getting this mold back is appreciated.

[w44wcf]

Guys,
Thank you for the kind words. I always like to see the original bullet designs being used in the cartridges they were intended for.

w44wcf 

[Buck Stinson]

These photos show a few molds from my collection and the bullets they cast.  The brass mold on the left is Winchesters 3rd model with the .45-75 WCF marking.  The bullet from this one weighs 353 grains.  The iron mold on the right is Winchesters 4th model which is marked only 45-75.  This bullet weighs 355 grains.  I use this mold when casting for any of my original .45-75's.  The other photo is an original and very rare Winchester 2nd model brass mold.  In the following post, I have included a couple more photos of this mold and a description.  I hope you enjoy these pics.

Adios,
Buck

[Buck Stinson]

Here are two more pics of the Winchester 2nd model mold.  These are made of brass with a single wooden handle.  The mold cavity does not have a hinge and casts a smooth sided bullet without grease grooves.  Although they have thse same appearance as a paper patch bullet, whey were not used with any patch material.  Only the .45-75 WCF caliber marking appears on this mold.  The bullet weight is 359 grains.  The bullets in this photo and the ones previous, were cast with 16/1 alloy.  This was the original Winchester recommendation for this caliber when casting and reloading your own ammo.

Adios,
Buck

[w44wcf]

Buck,
Thank you for the neat pics!  Those are truly some Winchester "Treasures" that you have!

I wonder about the smooth bullet(?). Must have been intended for a grease cookie(?).

w44wcf

[Grizzly Adams]

I agree, great to see those molds.  Thanks for posting the pics!

The 2nd model with the smooth sided bullet is really an interesting item.  Gotta wonder about how it was loaded and why it was made smooth sided.  Any idea?

[Buck Stinson]

In answer to your questions about this mold casting a "naked" bullet, it is believed by collectors that both the 1st model and the 2nd model Winchester molds, such as the one pictured here, may have been manufactured for Winchester by the Sharps Rifle Company.  Since the vast majority of Sharps molds at that time were "naked" (without grease grooves), it seems possible that these early Winchester molds were cherried the same way.  I  do not have a 1st model mold but it was exactly the same as my 2nd model shown in this photo, except that the handle looked like a single scissor handle, instead of wood.   It is also interesting to note that the 1st model mold was not marked with caliber or manufacturer.  The only caliber available at that time was .44 WCF, so it was understood that the mold was for .44-40.  Those who are interested in such things, know that the .44 WCF was the first center fire caliber to be chambered by Winchester.  Few people know that the second center fire caliber chambered by Winchester was .45-75 WCF.  A major change took place with the introduction of the 1876 model in .45-75 WCF caliber.  After that introduction, all second model molds, along with 1875 model reloading tools were marked with the caliber designation.  However, it was not until the second model 1880 tool was developed, that the Winchester name became a standard addition.  Pictured here is the 2nd model Winchester mold from the previous post as well as the original 1875 Winchester reloading tool and decapping pin.  The mold, tool and pin are all marked with the caliber designation and the tool still retains much of it's original gold enamel paint.  I purchased all of these items as a group from a private party in Texas, many years ago.

Adios,
Buck

[Grizzly Adams]

Great post, Buck, and very informative.  

" Few people know that the second center fire caliber chambered by Winchester was .45-75 WCF.  I don't believe I have ever heard before!

That reloading tool is just too cool!

[john boy]

Grizzly - Buck, here is my understanding of the time lines of WCF calibers:
M1866

• 44 Rimfire
• 44 Henry Flat or 44 Henry Centerfire, RARE - few conversions made and few cartridges exist

M1873 and 1876

• M1873 - 44WCF - introduced 1873 - The First WCF
• M1876 - 45-70  - 2 trial rifles for the military - 1873
• M1876 - 45-75 - introduced 1876 - The Second WCF
• M1876 - 45-90 - possible introduction 1878
• M1876 - 45-60 - introduced 1879
• M1876 - 50-95 - introduced 1879
• M1873 -38WCF - introduced 1880
• M1873 -32WCF - introduced 1882
• M1876 - 40-60 - introduced 1884

Now, one has to propose:  Was there any intent to shoot 45-75 PP bullets from the '76 rifle?
Buck, if you wouldn't mind - what is the length of the 353gr naked bullet?  May just have to take my adjustable PP mold and wrap a few for a test fly or two!

PS:  Thanks for the great mold pictures and information.  This forum is getting better and better every day with the informative information and historical pictures.  Sure beats the SASS Wire!

[Buck Stinson]

To Grizzly,  I'm glad you like to reloading tool.  So do I.

To John Boy and others who may be interested.  The sizes on the "naked" bullet are as follows:    length,  .835,   diameter as ejected from the mold, .458.   There are two good reasons why in my opinion, Winchester would not have expected their customers to paper patch the bullets cast from either the companies 1st or 2nd model molds.   First, the paper patch bullet would have to be loaded as a single shot.  Even if it would chamber, you couldn't load it through the loading gate without tearing up the patch.  The very selling point of these model guns (model 1873 and 1876) was the fact that they were repeaters.   Loading them as single shots with paper patch bullets, defeats the repeater idea.  Second, since the bullet I've cast from my 2nd model mold is .458 in diameter, it seems unlikely that a paper patch would work very well.  All of the original 1876 model Winchesters I've owned, ranged from .457 to .459 in bore size.  The only exception I have found is my Mountie carbine which is .455.  This is however, a late gun and well after the production dates of these first two Winchester molds. 

The introduction dates you list are absolutely correct.  However, I don't think the .45-70 or the .45-90 could be included, because these were not production calibers for the 1876 model.   There are in fact, a very few early 1876 models in the Winchester ledgers, listed by serial number, with the caliber designation as .45-70.  It is believed that this was nothing more than an error in listing each gun.  A couple of these serial numbers have actually surfaced as guns that still exist today and both were found to be chambered for .45-75 WCF.  No guns in the entire warehouse ledgers are listed as being .45-90 caliber.

I have to agree that this forum is exciting and interesting.  Yes, it does beat the SASS Wire in my opinion.

Adios,
Buck

[john boy]

The sizes on the "naked" bullet are as follows: length, .835, diameter as ejected from the mold, .458.

Thanks Buck - all will worked nicely in my adjustable PP mold.  It was cut by Fred Leeth for the '74 Sharps bullet and drops a 1:20 at 448.  I will resize to 446 and wrap 2x with 16# - 25% cotton.  This will get me on the money for a PP bullet for this rifle.  The barrels on the Chaparral (at least mine) are:
Bore – 451
Groove - 456

The primary reason for purchasing my Chaparral was a rifle being fed single shot for our 100-200-300yd matches that we hold at our club.  In fact, 4 of us purchased one for the same purpose. Only 2 of us shoot any PP's of any caliber - so I will have to make some up for my friend Swiss Oscar aka Bill Roth

No guns in the entire warehouse ledgers are listed as being .45-90 caliber.

That's what I've read too, contray to what the Winchester authors say there 'may' have been some chambered

[Buck Stinson]

John Boy,
Please keep me posted as to how the patching works out for your '76. 

Adios,
Buck

[w44wcf]

Based on these bullets pulled from other b.p. cartridges..............

I am thinking that there would have been a separate tool that would have rolled the lube grooves into a smooth bullet from your mold like the ones were produced in the pic.

Food for thought anyway.

w44wcf

[Maverick23]

Here are two more pics of the Winchester 2nd model mold.  These are made of brass with a single wooden handle.  The mold cavity does not have a hinge and casts a smooth sided bullet without grease grooves.  Although they have thse same appearance as a paper patch bullet, whey were not used with any patch material.  Only the .45-75 WCF caliber marking appears on this mold.  The bullet weight is 359 grains.  The bullets in this photo and the ones previous, were cast with 16/1 alloy.  This was the original Winchester recommendation for this caliber when casting and reloading your own ammo.

Adios,
Buck

Buck,

Are you certain that the mold you have pictured is a Winchester Mold? The mold you have pictured looks identical to a early Marlin mold pictured on page 53 of R.H. Chamberlain & Tom Quigley's book "Cartridge Reloading Tools of the Past"  This mold is different from the Winchester Mold pictured on page 34 of same book. Although similar in apperance they are noticeably different.

Your thoughts.
Sincerely,
Maverick

[Buck Stinson]

Maverick23,
As stated in my earlier post dated Dec. 11th, most Winchester tool collectors (myself included) believe these earliest of Winchester molds were possibly made by the Sharps Rifle Company.  It is a fact that Winchester did not make any early molds and tools in house, but rather had them manufactured by an outside source.  I don't think Marlin actually made the mold you have referrenced, but it is unclear why the book lists it as a Marlin mold.  No mention is made that it is marked Marlin or what caliber it might be.  The same might be said for the mold pictured on page 34.  It is clear to me that this mold is NOT a .45-75 mold, because the nose of the mold cavity is too long.   It appears to me that is was cherried in a single shot paper patch rifle caliber, as it is way too long to be cherried in .45-75WCF.  When comparing the two photos, you can see that the mold cavities differ greatly in length.  This makes me wonder if the photos on page 34 and page 53 were not inadvertantly switched and placed with the wrong details before the book went to print.   

[dusty texian]

Hey Buck,I have a spoon handle reloading tool for my 45-75wcf ,and a plier handle reloading tool for my 40-60wcf .I use them for decaping ,repriming and bullet seating . But do not know what the sharp pointed screw set below the die is for. I can tell it is set opposite what looks like half a case head holder . What is the sharp screw used for . Thanks Dusty .