Which is the better way to go?? Cartridge conversion or C/B drop-in cylinders

[Eagle Eyes Jefferson]

I would appreciate any info that you guys can relate. I am still deciding which handgun to go with for CAS. I will be shootin SASS since it is the only game in town and the guys from the local posse that I have cooresponded with have been top notch. I'm really looking forward to my first opportunity to observe a match.

The question is, would it be better to get a cartridge conversion such as 1860 army or remmie 1858 or to purchase the same weapon in C & B and get the appropriate conversion cylinder so I can shoot both??? I want to be able to use the weapons in whichever category I want but don't want to sacrifice anything to do it.

I am on somewhat of a budget, who isn't these days and I don't want to have to purchase three or four guns if I can get the job done just as well with two. I like the feel of the Remington 58's

Thanks....

[Pettifogger]

There's nothing that's good for all purposes.  Most cap and ball guns are made of softer steel than smokeless proofed guns (the Ruger Old Army being the exception) and don't hold up as well under heavy use as smokeless proofed guns, but they can serve quite well if you set them up right.  On the .36s there is a big disadvantage in that the bore is way oversize for modern .38 ammo.  If you want to shoot C&B and cartridges you can't sleeve the barrel so you have to use hollow base bullets.  Both guns you mentioned, the 1860 Army and Remington 58, don't require sleeving as the C&B and cartridges use the nominal size bullet.  The Army has a big disadvantage if you are going to shoot cartridges a lot.  There is currently no conversion cylinder kit that comes with a loading gate.  Thus, everytme you load or unload the gun you have to take off the barrel.  Also, the cylinders for the 1860 only have five chambers.  If you have a one shot reload on a stage you are toast.  The Remington can be had with a loading gate and even if you decide to remove the cylinders they are easier to swap since the gun has a solid frame and all you have to do is put the base pin out to change cylinders.  For what you are talking about if you like the feel of the Remington, that is the one to get.

[Silas McFee]

Howdy Pettifogger.

I have 2 Konversion kits; one for an 1858 and the other for an ROA  (I know Walt Kirst personally, and like his products, but there are lots of fans on the R&D products too).  The ROA is the most accurate handgun I own when shot with 45LC BP rounds and the Kirst Konverter.  Reloading on the clock is not great, but it's not great for almost any SA handgun, except maybe the top break actions.

The '58 costs less, and is a nice historically correct gun, if you're into that.  I think the ROA may be a naughty gun if you ever do NCOWS.  One caution on the '58, I'm told that the cylinder is under bored, that is the barrel is well suited for ~.454 sized bullets, but the CB cylinder is less than that, so unless you have the cylinder reamed out, you will get crappy accuracy and lots of fouling from gas passing the round ball as it's leaving the barrel.  This is NOT an issue with Konversion kits, as the bullet is then the correct size for the bore.  Maybe someone else here can expand on this, and I'm not even sure if it affects all manufacturers.  I do know that my 58 shoots really well using the Kirst Koverter and those Big Lube bullets we read so much about on this board.

Best regards,
Silas

[Pettifogger]

Silas, the guns I shoot the most are a pair of ROA's.  For practice I use the R&D conversion cylinders as they are much faster to load and unload when practicing.  The ROA's are also one of if not the most accurate revolvers I own.

[Eagle Eyes Jefferson]

Thanks for the info guys. I knew I would get good responses if I asked here. Pettifogger, I understand what you said about the 58's. Reference the ROA's, are they available only in .45 conversion cylinders or is there a .38 cal. cyclinder available??? In your opinion, what is it that makes the ROA so accurate?? Thanks in advance for your response. Lots of questions....


EEJ

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy!

I can't say much about the ROAs other than they're fine, well-built guns and are NOT legal for NCOWS, because they don't replicate guns that were made back then.  I'll bet a lot of NCOWS owners OWN one, they just don't shoot them at our matches!  Nothing that I know of is available in 38 (ish) caliber for the ROAs.

Back to your original question, the COST may be the big difference that I see.  You can buy about 5 extra C&B cylinders for any of your guns for the cost of ONE cartridge conversion.  MOST (or many) C&B guns are less costly than the appropriate conv. cylinder!  What Pettifogger said about the 5 shot conv. is right; if I were going to get a conv. cyl., I wouldn't bother buying an 1860, rather the Remington, due to the ease of changing cylinders.  (To watch an expert do it, see Clint do it in Pale Rider!)  I'd disagree some, however, with Silas. (Sorry pard  )  Yes, he's right - the bore is fine but the cylinder (original, NOT the conversions) IS a fair amount smaller than the bore diameter, however, the problem of leading and accuracy is not as bad as he mentions, ie: "crappy."  They are generally VERY accurate and some of it is due to the fact that ALL roundballs sold and most that are cast are made of pure lead and that is more forgiving than the harder lead most of us reload for use in cartridges or what comes in factory rounds.

I have a solution, if you're interested ... and have extra cash.  Buy an 1860 and extra C&B cylinders.  Why?  'Cause IMHO the 1860 Colt Army (and the 1861 Navy and 1862) are the drop-dead BEST lookin' firearms ever made!  They're almost sexy, they're so pretty!  As I said, this is MY opinion.  Then, since you have the C&B part covered, buy a '58 Remington and get a conversion cylinder.  See?!  Now ya got all the bases covered!!!    And ... that gives a wonderful excuse to buy more guns that you "need."    And since the '58 COMES as a C&B (unless you buy one of the new "factory Conversions" that a few companies are selling,) you've got 2 different C&B guns with all the pleasures included THAT way.

[Eagle Eyes Jefferson]

Okay Steel Horse, you've got my attention. So for a new CAS shooter, you are basically recommending, in your opinion, the 58's with conversion cylinders for cartridge categories and an 1860 with 4-5 extra C & B cyclinders for C & B categories??? Is that right? If so, that may be just the ticket. It will definitely be more cost effective than purchasing conversions plus the added bonus of C & B whenever I wanted. Thanks for the input.

EEJ

[Deadeye Don]

Okay Steel Horse, you've got my attention. So for a new CAS shooter, you are basically recommending, in your opinion, the 58's with conversion cylinders for cartridge categories and an 1860 with 4-5 extra C & B cyclinders for C & B categories??? Is that right? If so, that may be just the ticket. It will definitely be more cost effective than purchasing conversions plus the added bonus of C & B whenever I wanted. Thanks for the input.

EEJ

Yes but,  keep in mind that is only for starters!!  Once you start buying guns you wont be able to stop, nor should you stop. 

[Eagle Eyes Jefferson]

You know Deadeye, some how I knew it would end up this way. Again I say, so many guns and so little money!!!! Sounds like the collecting of guns may be more of a hobby than CAS. I guess the best thing to do is get in the game and if the first set up doesn't really fit, sell or trade for something else.

EEJ

[Deadeye Don]

You know Deadeye, some how I knew it would end up this way. Again I say, so many guns and so little money!!!! Sounds like the collecting of guns may be more of a hobby than CAS. I guess the best thing to do is get in the game and if the first set up doesn't really fit, sell or trade for something else.

EEJ

Actually,  some people do trade and sell guns to buy others, so that is one way to fully participate in CAS.  Personally,  I actually started out collecting reproductions due to my interest in the time period.  Then I found out there were actually people going out in groups and shooting these darn things and having a blast doing so.  Since joining NCOWS and 2 affiliated posses I am a happy camper, still collecting and now shooting! I may just have to convert to NCOWS life at my next renewal. 

Regards.  Deadeye.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Guess I may as well chime in on this one too. I have a pair of Remington 1858s that I shoot with R&D conversion cylinders everyonce in a while when the spirit moves me. I'm a cartridge man, so I always shoot the Remmies with cartridges in CAS. In fact, even though I have the percussion cylinder for it, I have NEVER fired one of my Remmies with the C&B cylinder. I bought it used, with the R&D cylinder, and it was a perfect match for the other Remmie I already owned, also with an R&D conversion cylinder. But I am no stranger to shooting cap & ball, I bought my first C&B revolver in 1968, and my first Remmie around 1975, long before I bought the R&D cylinder for it, they did not exist yet.

I just wanted to comment on this idea of multiple cylinders for c&b revolvers. I have seen many posters on various wires comment that they have multiple cylinders, and charge them with powder and ball at home, only capping them at the loading table. I do not know any C&B shooters who actually do that. It really is not much of a big deal to just charge your pistols with powder and ball at your cart, or the unloading table, or in a designated safe area, if the particular club requires it. There is still plenty of time to attend to your posse duties. Indeed, part of the freedom of a C&B revolver is it frees one up from the hassle of loading up cartridges, or anything else, before the match. You just show up with your powder flask, balls, and wads or bore butter or whatever you choose to use. At least that's what all the guys I know who shoot C&B do. I will add the proviso that this of course ditates that you are completely familliar and comfortable with C&B pistols, and are not trying to figure out how to use them at the same time you are trying to figure out how a CAS match works. But if that is the case, perhaps the beginner would be better off with cartridge revolvers in the first place. Or, he shoulod spend plenty of range time getting familliar with his C&B pistols before bringing them to a match.

Like I say, I am no stranger to C&B pistols, although I have been shooting cartridges in CAS for years now. But the pull of C&B is strong in this cowboy, and I have always thought the 1860 Colt was the most beautiful pistol ever made. Even though I could show up with my Remmies in their C&B personnas any time I wanted to, for some reason the 1860s are calling to me. If I buy a brace of 1860s this winter, I will not be buying any extra cylinders for them.

[Eagle Eyes Jefferson]

Thanks for chiming in Driftwood. I'm leaning towards the Rem. 58's with conversion cylinders for CAS. I like the idea of Cap and Ball as an alternative after I am comfortable with CAS matches. Seeing as how I am new to this, I agree that it would not make any sense at all for a new cap and ball shooter to try to get familiar with that particular method of shooting while still getting used to the matches. I am very familiar with firearms but I am sorry to say have never fired or loaded a cap and ball pistol. We don't have much use for them at the police department. Alittle slow for reloading in a gun fight. Anyway, Thanks for the information. It always helps to get an opinion from someone that has done it before and can pass on what they have learned in the process.

EEJ

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Halllooo!

Eagle Eyes, Driftwood has a point.  I DO know several C&B shooters who have numerous cylinders, but I have never found the need for more cylinders than what came with the gun.  However, I didn't start out with C&B pistols, but rather I used cartridge guns.  It actually took me 6 1/2 years of shooting SASS and NCOWS before I shot a match C&B!  However, I started shooting C&B back in the early '70s, so I was fairly comfortable with what I was doing.  Believe me; shooting C&B pistols while at a shooting range or Plinkin' Platz  is a LOT different than doing it at a match!

Driftwood mentioned the part about not having to worry about ammo before the match, but I think he forgot about the rifle.    Still gotta have rounds for that!  I know of NO ONE who shoots a single shot Percussion rifle at a match!  I DO, however, know of a good pard who DOES use a single shot cartridge rifle as his main match gun (sometimes) at a match and does rather well!  Right, River City John? 

As a new shooter, the '58 plus R&D or Kirst cylinder makes a lot of sense.  And you certainly can buy extra cylinders, both C&B AND conversion, to add to your collection.  Yes - They'll sell you extra cylinders, without the firing pins if you feel the need for extras.  And you CAN buy extra C&B cylinders for that same '58.  (Just don't forget 'bout those gorgeous 1860s!)

While a C&B pistol is plenty lethal, I understand why your department has chosen to use some slightly more modern firearms - just in case of a needed reload, no doubt.    IF ya don't think that C&B pistols can pack a punch, watch this video from our club's inaugural shoot.  I'm the guy in the Cavalry uniform shooting my new Colt 1st Model Dragoon, and keep this in mind:  I was NOT shooting this gun with the FULL load of powder it was designed for - but it was close. 

http://www.cascity.com/castv.htm?bcpid=716337934&bclid=823382883&bctid=1197714975

[Pettifogger]

I agree with what the majority has said.  An extra cylinder might be useful if there is a reload, but are a pain to haul around and who wants to clean 10 or 12 cylinders at the end of a match.  Here is what I use to load my ROA's.  I can reload both cylinders in just a little more time than it takes some pards to clear their cartridge guns at the unloading table.

[Arcey]

Steel Hoss, not ta argue. Just a different perspective.

Suppose it's a matter of taste. Kindah prefer the functional, square lines of the '51 Navy. Kindah like my '91 Mustang over a Firebird. But that car is long gone. Middle-age crazy. The '60s kindah makes me think of a clumsy SUV with 24" wheels on it.

Unless one has multiple cylinders for the C&B stuff, preloaded, I'll offer it can be a problem when it comes to posse duties.

Example, Saturday past. We were short qualified ROs. The club hasn't let me run the clock since I messed up my back over a year ago but I had it Saturday. Felt good, had a blast. Really added to my fun. Always great to share the task with Wildcat Will.

Thing is, if I'd had my '51 Navy, Remington or ROA instead of my '73 Colt's cartridge revolvers I wouldn't have had the time to take a breath. I would have handed the clock to Will after I ran my half of the posse 'n gone straight to the table to charge the C&B cylinder. By then I'd have been called to the table to load everything 'n get to the line to shoot. After that I'd have had the clock again.

I'm old 'n feeble. I want a bit of a break now 'n again ta watch, burn one 'n take a sip ah coffee. I have time load at home, I don't once the first shot goes downrange.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

How-deee!

Arcey, as usual, you "say" good things.  FWIW, I fell in love with pistols BECAUSE of a '51 Colt.  It's just that I hadn't seen the '60 design, and when I did, it was luv at 1st sight!

Diff'rent Strokes and all that! 

Pettifogger, that's an AWESOME reloading stand!  Did you do the work?


Eagle Eyes, another point Arcey made is right on the money.  If there are plenty of shooters to share the posse duties, a NORMAL C&B shooter can get done what needs to be done and still do a share of the duties, but if your posse is a bit shorthanded, you can end up busier than a one-armed wallpaper hanger!  SOME few folks might actually do the C&B thing so they DON'T "have time" for their share of posse duties - I've seen it happen, I suspect.  In reality, a nice comfortable pace where everyone has time to share duties AS WELL AS take a breather is pretty important.  A LOT of shooters get real flustered if hurried, and gettin' hurried can lead to mistakes, and mistakes on a live-fire range can be downright unhealthy - or at the very least, embarrassing.

Kinda sounds like we're tryin' to talk ya out of shootin' C&B, don't it?!   Well, not really - you just need to be able to keep everything straight in your mind and not get flustered.  Have you been to a match yet?  I went the 1st time as a shooter, but MANY go the first time and only watch.  You gotta know what works for you.  Another hint: try to find a smaller club to go to the first time you shoot.  It might be a bit slower and more relaxed for your first times.  Feel free to join us at the Great Lakes Freight & Mining Company: http://home.insightbb.com/~greatlakesfmc/index.htm or at the Scarlet Mask Vigilance Society: http://smvsposse.home.insightbb.com/index.htm.


We'll do our best to make ya feel at home.  How far from Indiana did you say you were? 

[Major 2]

I'm going to chime in here.... and I'm a diehard Colt 1860 & Richards Conversions fan ...

I have no dog in the hunt... But.. your timing could not be better 

there is a guy on this BB right now offereing his two Drop in conversion Cylinders for Pietta at $190 each... about $35 saviing on each
also Caleba's just happens to have the 58 Pietta on sale....I think about $180 shipped...

I don't think you find a better price anytime soon the best of both worlds two C&B and two Conversions.

Marry Christmas 

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=17805.msg226883;boardseen#new

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

Since you expressed an interest in the 1858 Remmies, I would be remiss if I did not qualify my recommendation of them somewhat.

Modern cartridge revolvers incorporate a raised bushing on the front surface of the cylinder. With some guns, like a Colt it is a separate piece, a slip fit bushing. With other guns, like a Ruger, it is a built in feature of the cylinder. The purpose of this raised bushing is to deflect powder fouling and hot gasses emerging from the barrel/cylinder gap away from the spot where the cylinder pin (the pin the cylinder revolves around) emerges from the cylinder. If powder fouling is blasted onto the pin it works its way inside the hole in the cylinder and tends to cause the cylinder to bind. This is not much of a concern with Smokeless powder, but it is a big concern with Black Powder.

The 1858 Remington design has no such raised bushing. The cylinder is completely flat in front. Powder fouling is blasted directly out of the barrel/cylinder gap onto the cylinder pin. Because of this I find that I have to wipe off the front surface of the cylinder and the pin a minimum of once for every two cylinders full, or the Remmies will begin to bind up. It gets difficult to pull the hammer back to cock the gun. In contrast, my Colt, clone, and Ruger cartridge revolvers will shoot all day with Black Powder without any attention at all, because of the raised cylinder bushing.

Recently there have been some excellent Black Powder specific bullets developed that carry a great deal of soft bullet lube on them, and these bullets help a great deal with the problem of cylinders binding because they keep the fouling soft and pliable. Even so, even when using these bullets in the conversion cylinders of my Remmies, I still have to wipe them down every two cylinders full. With conversion cylinders this is no problem as the cylinders need to be removed to load them anyway, at least with the R&D design. I just wipe down the front of the cylinder with a damp rag when I take out the cylinder to reload it. With percussion though, cylinders may or may not be removed from the gun to load, typically I just load them right on the gun. So wiping down the cylinder is a little bit more of a pain, but not much.

I have not shot a Colt style C&B much in many years, but I seem to remember that the larger diameter arbor (the part the cylinder revolvers around), spreads the fouling out more and hleps the Colt style C&B revolvers roll a little longer without binding up. Perhaps a Colt style C&B shooter will comment on this. Or if I buy a pair of 1860s I may be able to contribute first hand knowledge myself.

[Arcey]

SOME few folks might actually do the C&B thing so they DON'T "have time" for their share of posse duties - I've seen it happen, I suspect.

Suspect there are some more interested in what they wanna do rather than pullin' their weight along with the rest. That's sad but we recruit from the human race like ever'one else. We draw a good crowd. Had 41 Saturday, split between two posses. If someone was standin' 'round it was prolly 'cause others had beat 'em to a job.

We're sponsorin' ROI & ROII courses next weekend. Folks that have signed up have almost filled the room to capacity, think we're two short. Reckon my days of yellin' "shooter ready?" are comin' to a close.

[Pettifogger]

"The 1858 Remington design has no such raised bushing. The cylinder is completely flat in front. Powder fouling is blasted directly out of the barrel/cylinder gap onto the cylinder pin. Because of this I find that I have to wipe off the front surface of the cylinder and the pin a minimum of once for every two cylinders full, or the Remmies will begin to bind up." 

Yep, this is a problem.  I'm working on a 58 to eliminate this problem.  Stay tuned.