44-40 NMA Remington?

Hoof Hearted · November 24, 2007, 10:44:46 AM

Although Uberti hasn't imported them yet, I for one won't be buying one as I consider Walt Kirst a friend. Walt holds the patent for the design that Uberti has chosen to use and I feel that Uberti has crossed the line, so to speak!

Being a Remington conversion "collector" (I have over a dozen) I regularly load and shoot heel base and hollow base 44 ammunition for a number of guns. Twenty grains of fff Swiss just seems well, anemic. So I got to thinking why not a 44-40 cylinder with hollow base buulets in a replica? I have seen old Remington conversions in this caliber that were obviously "home smithed"This brought me to conversing about the possibility with Walt and boy did he step up to the plate! I now have at my disposal 5 and 6 shot "blanks" properly bored .375 for chambering reamers.

So here's where I'll start:
I have extra 44-40 cylinders for Colt SAA's and clones. I'm going to fit a cylinder to one and load some ammo. This will have to be hollow base as the throats will dictate that. If all goes well I will be needing a roughing and finishing reamer in 44-40 wcf! Of course if anyone out there has reamers let me know.

These cylinder "blanks" would also lend themselves to 38-40 (need to reline the barrel), 44 special, 44 Russian, and just about any reasonabe pressure cartridge requiring a chamber throat of .375 or over.

Any of you have ideas?

Fox Creek Kid · November 26, 2007, 02:39:32 PM

I thought Walt Kirst only copied the Remington Navy conversion ring & gate? If so, how is Uberti infringing?

QuoteI have extra 44-40 cylinders for Colt SAA's and clones.

No offense, but IMO a fluted cylinder on a '58 frame will just look plain silly. Again, just my opinion.

Hoof Hearted · November 29, 2007, 02:09:28 PM

Quote from: Fox Creek Kid on November 26, 2007, 02:39:32 PM
I thought Walt Kirst only copied the Remington Navy conversion ring & gate? If so, how is Uberti infringing?

Walt's patent covers how the ring "sits" in the frame window. It does not have anything to do with the Remington model or type of gate.

Quote from: Fox Creek Kid on November 26, 2007, 02:39:32 PM
No offense, but IMO a fluted cylinder on a '58 frame will just look plain silly. Again, just my opinion.

No offense taken. You mis-read the post and took this sentence out of context!

Fox Creek Kid · November 29, 2007, 07:11:09 PM

Sorry, I thought you meant a fluted 44-40 cylinder fitted to a NMA.

Hoof Hearted · November 29, 2007, 08:34:00 PM

Quote from: Fox Creek Kid on November 29, 2007, 07:11:09 PM
Sorry, I thought you meant a fluted 44-40 cylinder fitted to a NMA.

Naw.........no harm done

I'm just gonna use a 1873 Colt clone as a test mule

By the way Kenny Howell (R&D) offers a fluted cylinder for the NMA.
IMHO it looks pretty cheezy

Marshal Will Wingam · November 29, 2007, 08:51:35 PM

Quote from: Hoof Hearted on November 29, 2007, 08:34:00 PMBy the way Kenny Howell (R&D) offers a fluted cylinder for the NMA.
IMHO it looks pretty cheezy

You're absolutely right. I got one to see if it would be a good way to tell my .38's from my .45's when loading so I wouldn't mix them up. I didn't like it and sent it back for a plain one. I just load one at a time, anyway.

That 44-40 sounds like an interesting project. I'll keep an eye on this thread to see your progress. THAT's a good idea.

Hoof Hearted · December 08, 2007, 12:03:21 AM

Well I'm sorry for the delay

I have the ammo ready to go (44-40 210gr Rapine Hollow Base 2.3cc Swiss 2f SPG lube)
I spent a few minutes tonight fitting the 44-40 cylinder to a clone SAA with a bore of .451. This should simulate the Remington NMA clone barrel. My concern is how the bullet is going to behave in the cylinder throat. I really don't want to sacrifice a perfectly good cylider by honing out the throats (as would be the case in trying to be "semi" authentic to the .451 throats that a 44 colt would have). Although I'm pretty sure I will set up the throats on the NMA to be .451+ so as to be able to utilize heel base bullets (then I know I can get 40gr's in there).

If we don't get the 40 degree weather drop and sleet that is forecast I will shoot it for accuracy this weekend and report back!

Marshal Will Wingam · December 08, 2007, 12:15:06 PM

The bore on my Uberti NMA's is .455. You may have a whole different result if you don't sleeve them. I've been battling accuracy, not knowing until recently that I was working with a whole diffent bore diameter than I thought.

Hoof Hearted · December 08, 2007, 01:14:46 PM

Quote from: Marshal Will Wingam on December 08, 2007, 12:15:06 PM
The bore on my Uberti NMA's is .455. You may have a whole different result if you don't sleeve them. I've been battling accuracy, not knowing until recently that I was working with a whole diffent bore diameter than I thought.

Will

The Uberti likes 0.454 bullets without a doubt, but they will shoot .451 as long as you generate enough pressure for good base obturation. Sadly most "cowboy" shooters/reloaders do not understand that concept, hence lots of leading and poor accuracy.

If you remember I am working with a Pietta (.445 chambers in the c&b cylinder and 0.451 bore). The whole point is kinda moot here though since the purpose of a 0.429 hollowbase bullet is to expand to the bore size. That's why I am experimenting with a 44-40 cylinder and a 45 barrel.

Marshal Will Wingam · December 08, 2007, 06:05:20 PM

Quote from: Hoof Hearted on December 08, 2007, 01:14:46 PMIf you remember I am working with a Pietta (.445 chambers in the c&b cylinder and 0.451 bore). The whole point is kinda moot here though since the purpose of a 0.429 hollowbase bullet is to expand to the bore size. That's why I am experimenting with a 44-40 cylinder and a 45 barrel.

Yep, I forgot that. Sounds like a good testbed.

I've been rounding up a few samples of .454 bullets to try but some of the samples haven't come in yet. My loads are basically full boat but the bullets I've been using have been too hard to obturate properly. Like I said, once I figured out the problem, now it's just a matter of getting the correct stuff to get accurate loads.

Hoof Hearted · December 08, 2007, 10:32:29 PM

Will

I have a 45 mould for hollow base and some moulds that throw .454
We could easily work something out where I send you some "test" bullets

Marshal Will Wingam · December 09, 2007, 12:40:24 AM

Quote from: Hoof Hearted on December 08, 2007, 10:32:29 PMI have a 45 mould for hollow base and some moulds that throw .454
We could easily work something out where I send you some "test" bullets

That could be really great. Hollow base would do the trick nicely. What weight are they? I've been using 200 gr bullets and they hit right on but I expect the same weight they may hit a little high if they actually obturated right. I could always file the sights down a bit to work. At any rate, send me a pm and we can do some figuring. Thanks.

Hoof Hearted · January 15, 2008, 05:02:13 PM

Wil

I'm down right sorry to have let this post slip off without getting back to you!

I finally got cleared up enough to do some casting and i broke out that 45 Hollow Base mould. It is throwing a 150 grain bullet.....pretty light

I did shoot the 44-40 with a few of these (44-40 cylinder in a 451 Colt SAA) and it shot fine. Pretty strong load of a full case of 3F Swiss.

Marshal Will Wingam · January 16, 2008, 10:48:58 AM

Quote from: Hoof Hearted on January 15, 2008, 05:02:13 PMI finally got cleared up enough to do some casting and i broke out that 45 Hollow Base mould. It is throwing a 150 grain bullet.....pretty light

That is light. I went to a 205gr bullet to put the POI on target properly. 165's were way low. With a 150 I would have to take a bunch of front sight off and I'd rather not do that. Thanks for trying, though. I appreciate it.