Forcing cone reamer

[rifle]

I was talking to a Pard(Fox Creek Kid?) on the phone and the subject of Taylor Throater came up. I was confused about it since I hadn't heard of it. I looked it up at "Brownells" where I buy my gunsmithing goodies. I noticed it didn't seem like the kit came with "pilots".  I've been using a forcing cone reamer kit from Brownells for years and years that comes caliber specific or as a set of 38cal., 44 cal., 45 cal. . Individual pieces can be had for it. The "subject" I wanted to bring up is "pilots for the tools rod cal. specific " that guide the reamer "centered" and snug for "chatter free" reaming.  My reaming kit has pilots and it will do a perfect chatter free job as long as the pilots which guide the rod fore and aft are snug riding the lands of the barrel. Since I've been using the "piloted" reamer kit I can't imagine being able to do a chatter free forcing cone ream job without them. Maybe the Taylor Throater Fox Creek Kid mentioned (I think it was Fox Creek and hope it was) has an integral pilot on the leading end of the reamer. I didn't see any pilots for the Taylor kit in Brownells. Well.....I don't believe a good "concentric with the bore" forcing cone ream job can be done without the pilots. If Brownells still sells the piloted kit ,and I imagine they do, I'd recommend that tool set to ream for a chatter free forcing cone. The kit I have can come with the 11 degree cutter and the 18 degree cutter which ever you want. The 11 degree is fora jacketed bullet and the 18 degree is for a lead semi wad cutter type bullet but they can go either way depending on what a pard wants and how well the alignment of the chambers to the bore is on a specific revolver.  Anywhoooo.....I've used the forcing cone reamer on cap&ballers as well as cartridge revolvers. The cap&ballers can come sometimes out of the box with off center forcing cones and at times with "no forcing cone". I've improved the accuracy of peoples cap&ballers by reaming(opening up) the forcing cone when the alignment is off and the Pard doesn't want to find a new cylinder or have me see if the original cylinder can be aligned. You know go the cheapest route. A guy may get away with opening up a cap&baller forcing cone a little "extra" since the guns shoot balls. I wouldn't recommend going over board with either cap&ballers or cartridge revolvers that will be shooting conicals. A person doesn't want to open up to much with conicals and have the bullet tip or cant when it's entering the forcing cone  since that deforms the bullet and if it enters crooked it deforms and goes down the barrel crooked and thus shoots "crooked". ha ha ha ha  Guns with bad alignment can fool a person since an overly open forcing cone can probably be better than the bad alignment of the chambers to the barrel grooves whereas the bad alignment shaves lead offin the bullet. A person doesn't want to cure the symptom and not the cause. The misalignment being the cause and opening up a forcing cone being the cure of the symptom and not the cause. You know if the gun needs aligned it's better to do that than to open a forcing cone to cure the symptom and not the cause.  Of course aligning chambers to bores can be difficult.  All pistols don't need a line bored chamber job with a new cylinder though. The bolts can be adjusted sometimes to remedy the problem. I do that on cap&ballers whereas the frames bolt windows are off or really big and such.  Anywhooo........if anyone is pondering getting a forcing cone reamer they may ponder first off whether or not they want the "piloted" (fore and aft in the barrel ) reamer kit. Brass pilots can be had and turned down to fit perfectly snug on a barrels lands and that keeps things concentric with the bore and truely chatter free. I mean, heck man, how can we live without perfectly smooth chatter free forcing cones in our barrels? ha ha ha

[Fox Creek Kid]

The following is from Alpha Precision's website:

"Taylor Throating is offered in .22, .32, .357/.38, .40, .41, .44, .45, and .475 calibers.  Essentially, the barrel throat is lengthened one and one half to two calibers, and enlarged to slightly over groove diameter.  The throat serves as the throat in a rifle barrel, enabling the bullet to become perfectly aligned with the bore before engaging the rifling.  The "choking" effect present from tightening the barrel into the frame is removed as well.  The rifling leade is a very gentle 1 ½ degrees.  On average, when tested before and after using a Ransom Rest, 50 yard groups have been reduced 40 to 50%.  The improvement is there using both cast and jacket bullets.  I have not detected a change in velocity using cast bullets.  Before and after chronographing is within standard deviation of each test.  Using jacket bullets, there is a slight loss, less than 50 fps in all the tests I've conducted.  If the barrel cylinder gap is adjusted to minimum at the same time the Taylor Throating is done, there will not be a velocity loss with jacket bullets, usually a gain of 25 to 50 fps.

I am convinced Taylor Throating produces the greatest accuracy improvement value available.  Line-bore chambering will produce the most accurate revolvers, but the cost is prohibitive for many.  When the barrel is accurately recrowned; the forcing cone recut concentric to the bore; Taylor Throating is almost as accurate as line-bore chambering with a savings of several hundred dollars.  Line-bore chambering is accomplished by chambering each chamber in exact line with the bore, as the cylinder is locked as rigidly as it will be when the revolver is shot.  The lock-up is achieved using the revolver's own components.  A slow process to be sure, but it does produce the most accurate revolver."

[rifle]

Well Fox Creek.....it's interesting. I may have to pick one of those up to use fer cap&ballers. I've used the piloted reamer tools I've got to do that type of reaming for cap&ballers using lead balls and felt the principle was sound for those guns and round ball projectiles. Wonder if one of those calibers the "Taylors" is offered in would do a 36cal. cap&baller?  
It's a wonder the lead in to the grooves with the Taylors reamer can be 1 to 1.5 degrees without being really long.  ha ha  I'd wonder what happens after a few shots since loose lead bullets lead a barrel. If the Taylors opens it up to slightly more than groove diameter it might be good to use bigger diameter bullets. Like say, 45cal. .454's instead of .452's. 
If the Taylors gets rid of the "chokes" the threads cause my old Uberti Cattleman could probably benifit from that. ha ha ha  Anywhoooo......if that reamer can improve some groups by 40-50 percent I like to know how bad the groups were to start with. ha ha ha   One thing I'd say is that if the Taylors reamer is really "for real" and not a marketing ploy it would be a great thing for all those revolvers out there that are a little out of alignment. I ought to get me one and test it out on some old gun. Anywhooo...do you know if the Taylors reamer has an integral pilot to it?
Thanks for turning me on to something new Fox Creek. Like I don't have enough to bend my mind already. Now I have to try to prove that old saying,"can't teach an old dog new tricks" is wrong.   ha ha ha ha   I'd like to read some gun magazine articles on that reamer. If it is actually chatter free it would be a nice solution to the "choke" problem caused by tightening the threads of a revolver into the frame. Lapping them out is time consuming and can be tricky. My old Cattleman had that problem and leading was like something from Pandoras Box. I carried a Lewis lead remover with me on my hikes into the farmland to help lessen the ground hog infestation(dig big holes in fields). That old Cattleman did the job well enough but.....I could pull strips of lead from the grooves in the barrel the length of the barrel which is over 7 inches. ha ha ha  I was using jacketed bullets in that gun for a good long time. It doesn't lead anymore from the use of the jacketed bullets and some lapping. Of course the choke at the breech end of the barrel wasn't the only problem with that gun. It had chamber throates that went .456-7 and a barrel that was right at .452 in the grooves.
I should add here.......thanks for the feedback Fox Creek. You're a Gentleman and a Scholar and I appreciate your opinions. I hope to hear from some other Cowboys that have and use the reamer. I'd like to get some feedback from some of those that use the tool and see what their experiences have been. Gun magazine articles about the tool would be an interest to me. Gunsmith feedback would be cool too!  Who's Alpha Precision?

[rifle]

I went to alpha Precisions site and read the general description about the Taylor reamer. I didn't see anything about whether or not it is piloted. If it isn't piloted I doubt I'd use it. The description at AP  mentioned "the bullet slamming into the side of the forcing cone and becoming deformed". My learning has given me the opinion that "as the bullet enters thus it travels the bore and thus it travels to the target. The geoscopic trait mentioned and used to assume the bullet will stabilize in flight is a really relative thing. Bullets also de-stabilize more as they travel to the target if they leave the barrel deformed. The "keyhole" affect would be a drastic example. I don't get the comparision made in the description comparing an over size pistol barrel breech to a rifle throat. I'd have to think about that one. I know gunsmiths and have discussed certain things with them and I've come to realize they aren't any different than an auto mechanic or plumber or whatever a professional does in regards to liking the quick and easy money. The Taylor reamer job may be one of those types of jobs. I think the verdict is still out with my opinion of the tool. I don't care for the "slightly bigger than groove diameter" part of the tools ream job. The part about the caliber or caliber and a half length bothers me too. I mean, heck, if I read the description right, it sounds more like the tool (which seems unpiloted) does what most gunsmiths ,I believe, would consider a trashed out forcing cone ream job. ha ha ha   I believe the right tools should be used to open up or lengthen a forcing cone and the proper piloted tools are used for that at times with guns that are out of alignment some and could benifit from a forcing cone ream job to help the bullet get into the grooves with less deformation. Thing is going too far can ruin a barrel. Open it up too much can actually aid the bullets canted deformed entrance into the grooves. Round balls from cap&ball cylinders are one thing and conicals from cartridge cylinders are another. The conical bullet has one different trait than a round cap&baller lead ball. The conical has two ends. When one end goes one way, like the front of the bullet hitting the side of the forcing cone off center, the other end trys and usually does,go the other way. Thus it(the bullet) enters canted and somewhat deformed. If there's more space for the bullets to cant ,as in a ream job that's lengthened and opened bigger than groove diameter too far into the barrel , that seems to me to be an possible aid to more canted entering of the bullet into the barrel(especially with the shorter bullets) and more deformation. All things are relative though and an improvement in accuracy after a Taylor ream job could happen with a gun that's "really" way out of alignment. An extreme case. I think my humble opinion would be that I'd rather stick to the "piloted" forcing cone reamers that use the standard 11 degree or 18 degree angle to the reaming. Also, when a reamer is advertised as a "chatter free" tool that has to be taken with a grain of salt. If the tool comes with pilots that just happen to fit a guys guns perfectly then so be it. The tool will ream a chatter free forcing cone but......if the pilot isn't a perfect fit a person won't get a chatter free ream job. The pilots have to be there fore and aft on the ream tools rod in the barrel and the pilots have to be fitted to fit perfect to get a truely chatter free ream job. In my opinion it's not mechanically possible to get a chatter free ream job without the perfect snug fit to the pilots. I guess I'll still use my old reamers that need the extra work and time involved to fit the pilots to the lands of the barrel so my jobs are truely concentric with the bore and truely chatter free. I don't have to worry about time involved and all that. I'm not making a living off gunsmithing. I'm just retired and seem to relax well when I'm in the throes of some gunsmith job on cap&ballers or muzzleloaders.

[Gripmaker]

Rifle,  I wouldn't be too concerned about the lack of a pilot on the Taylor Throating tool. Allen and Jim Taylor, who invented this
throating process have both forgotten more than 99.99999999% of gunsmiths could even hope to learn, let alone retain. I have personally known both of them for years and can attest to their expertise with all manner of firearm. Allen is fast approaching 90 and can shoot better upside down than men 1/3 his age can on both legs. He is trully a phenomenal shot and a wonderful old Gentleman. Allen throated a number of my revolvers years ago and improved their accuracy from 1 1/4" average @ 25 meters to 5/8" average for my 44s. Since that is with my tired old eyes, it would be interesting to see what they would do in a Ransom Rest.   Since this si the only accurizing work I have had done to any of them, I must attribute their accuracy to Allen's fine work with that "pilotless" reamer he uses.

PS: It doesn't always have to make sense to work. Heck, with guns it never makes sense anyway.

[rifle]

Gripmaker, I guess with the help of a testimonial like yours I'll be proded to get one of those reamers and give it a try one my old Cattleman.....then an 1860 Army Pietta since the groove diameter is so close to that of a 45.   Maybe an old dog can learn new tricks.     Hey since you have first hand experience with that reamer can you tell me if there are leading issues at the breech end of your barrel ?   What does the barrel look like in the breech after the reaming?  It must begood to have experienced gunsmiths of that caliber as friends.   Thanks for taking the time to shed some light on the subject Gripmaker. Gripmaker? Do you make grips? Sell them?  Gripmaker, I wouldn't be too concerned about your tired old eyes if you can shoot 5/8th's inch groups at 25 yards.  We should all have eyes that good. 

[Steel Horse Bailey]

I went to the website and I couldn't find a price for the reamer.  Are they for sale?

Also - and I'm NOT bad mouthing, I'm just not familiar with gunsmith servicing prices - isn't the Lock, Stock & Barrel price of $95 a bit steep for simply reaming a forcing cone by the "Taylor's Method"? 

[Fox Creek Kid]

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.aspx?p=20637&title=TAYLOR+THROATING+REAMER+KIT

[Dick Dastardly]

While on the subject of reaming, and not wanting to hijack the thread, does anybody ream the chambers of the Italian C&B clones to match the bore diameter?  Silas McFee has a fine Pietta 58 that came with both the original C&B cylinder and a Kirst Konverter cylinder.  The Kirst Konverter matches the bore diameter nicely.  The C&B chambers run .007" small.

DD-DLoS

[rifle]

To the Honerable Mr. Dastardly.....I've been reaming chambers for peoples cap&ballers. 45's like the chambers .001-.003 in. over the barrels groove diameter. Ball size available can be a determining factor. Pietta has .451-2 barrels. Sometimes .450 barrels. Sticking with .452 chambers allows the use of .457 balls. I've got some Piettas Rems that aren't reamed in the chambers and they shoot good. Lead must actually consistantly bump up in those. Other guns the lead seems to not bump up consistantly. Anywhoooo....I can do them on my little milling machine. I had Starret make me a special tool for lining up well to the center of an existing hole that cost me over $400. I may as well use it. ha ha ha  It lines me up well. I've never had complaints about my work on cap&ballers. I do cap&ball trigger jobs and alignments and barrel set backs with the arbor slot set back to go along with that and all that. I reside at voyforums blackpowder message board as Wayne or Wayner or Waynerinskistiener.
To the Honerable Mr. Steel Horse, $95 does seem a little steep but.....gotta feed Momma. ha ha ha I'll get one of those reamers and charge you a lot less to do it if they work well enough. It seems that the rave reviews must be an indication they do. I'd have to test it and check it out. "I do cap&ballers only" though and the size of those barrels can differ a lot. I use a different tool that takes that into account. Some of the cap&ball barrels can measure .464 in the barrels grooves for 45's. That is a bit bigger than the cartridge counterparts. Anywhooooo.......someone on this forum should buy one of the Taylor reamers and rent it out to their Pards for $10 plus shipping .

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy!

Rifle - WoW!  Now I'm honorable!?!  Very kind of you to say it and especially nice of you to offer your "fixing" services at reduced rates!  Thank you.  My 1858 NMA by Pietta has NO forcing cone that I can see.  I haven't had good luck trying to slug the bores and cylinders of my gun, PLUS I'd have to do it again 'cause I can't remember what the dimensions are when I wrote them down - and I wasn't convinced of the accuracy of said measurements, anyway!

Fox Creek Kid, thanks for the link.  I've seen that reamer advertised in my Brownells catalog, but had forgotten #1) that Clymer makes the set-up and #2) I forgot about it totally and only looked on the L,S & B and Alpha P sites! 

[Fox Creek Kid]

Rifle, my two cap 'n balls should've arrived at your place today (I hope).

P.S. Feel free to experiment radically with either Steel Horse Bailey's or Dick Dastardly's pistols but not mine.  Just kiddin' boys!

D.D., I sent you a PM three days ago, did you get it? 

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Kid,

Could have slipped thru the electronic cracks between the boards on my dum box. Send me an emule at rrhody@spwl.net and I'll get it.  Mason Stillwell had a similar problem.  I'm not hidin' out, just hard of hearing. . .

DD-DLoS

[Fox Creek Kid]

I sent e-mails before and your filter prevents hotmail you told me. When can you be reached by ph.?

[Cuts Crooked]

I sent e-mails before and your filter prevents hotmail you told me. When can you be reached by ph.?

Pssst...Hey Fox, try going to his website. You'll find a phone number fer him there.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Re-read my post, Cuts. I said WHEN, not WHERE, Einstein!! 

[Cuts Crooked]

Try him about 0900 hours. That's when he calls me!

[Gripmaker]

Rifle,  Sorry for the delay in answering but have been at the MO SASS State Championships in Branson and just checked emails & web this eveneing. To answer your questions about throating on my guns: No leading problems at all and I have shot everything from soft (12 BH) bullets in 44 Mag at about 1350 fps to Oregon Trail's hard cast at 1550 in same gun. I have a JP Sauer 44 SA that Allen Taylor throated for me and it will put two different loads on the same 8 1/2X11 paper at 100 yds with my 100 Peso front sight. Forcing cones have all stayed bright and clean even after using BP or subs. I have tried everything I can think of to get leading and its just not happening. FYI, it does help to have the inventor do the work for you as no one understands like he does.

Yes Sir, I do manufacture/sell grips as per www.gripmaker.com.

The best remedy I have found for tired old eyes is soft contact lenses. Contacts to help you see better and soft ones to be more comfortable. If possible, have you optometrist set you up with "mono vision". One eye for reading/short sightedness and other eye for distance(Dominant eye for sighting and opposing eye for target acquisition). Works great for me and is like having the eyes of a 16 year old again.

[rifle]

Thanks for the info GripMaker. Soft contacts. Sounds like something I should look into. I'm going to try to get one of those Taylors reamers. Just has my curiosity peaked out. I use(cap&ballers) what seems to be just about the exact principal as the Taylors reamer but with different tools. It seems to give rewards of accuracy improvements with the round lead bals.(not so good with square lead balls ). 

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy!

rifle, you said: "not so good with square lead balls"


Good one!      As accurate as I've been shooting lately, those must be what I'm shooting!