Smith shop Feather rod safety?

[will52100]

 

I was looking through the smith shop and came accross this  http://www.thesmithshop.com/featherfire.html

I'm not interested in lighting my main spring or replaceing the firing pin extension, they've worked perfectly for years and light the primmers of anything I feed it everytime.  I do have a question about the slot they milled into the rod for a set screw.  I thought the toggle links and bolt took the recoil, and the extension was flooting?  To make the bolt come back in your face, how likely is that posible?  It'd have to shear the 1/16" pin, which wouldn't be that hard to do, but to do that the recoil from the round would have to bypass the bolt and toggle links which should be locked up and prevent that?   Not that I'm against makeing a 147 year old design better, but has there ever been an extension flying back into someone's face?

Thanks

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

The simple answer is yes, firing pin extensions have been ejected rearward out of toggle link actions and have caused injury. So far no one has been blinded yet, that I have heard of. The hammer tends to deflect the extension away from the shooter's eye.

It is not caused by normal recoil, it is caused by an out of battery discharge. If the links of a toggle link action are not totally extended they have no strength at all. If the trigger is accidentally brushed while the lever is being closed, and if everything is lined up just right (or wrong as the case may be), if the hammer falls while the bolt is closing but before the links are locked, and the extractor has popped over the cartridge rim securing the cartridge, the firing pin will fire a cartridge before the links are locked. Recoil will drive the bolt straight back and the links will fold. They have absolutely no holding power unless they are fully extended. They will collapse just as surely as your knees will if someone walks up behind you and pushes your knees forward. In this situation the lever is usually yanked right out of the shooters hand. The worst case is the bolt can develop enough rearward momentum that the 1/16" pin holding the firing pin extension in place can shear and the extension can come straight back out of the action. It does not always happen, but it has happened. That is one reason why the '92 design is so superior a design to the toggle link design. With the 92 the locking lugs have already risen high enough in their locking slots that they will prevent rearward motion of the bolt in case of an out of battery discharge. That is why there is no trigger lock on a '92.

It has happened with toggle link guns, it usually gets reported once a year or so on the SASS Wire.

That is why the '73 has a trigger interlock and that is why the original '73s had a trigger interlock. The original '73 was chambered for the 44-40 cartridge, which was more powerful than the 44 Henry rimfire cartridge that the original Henry and '66 were chambered for. Winchester felt it was prudent to incorporate a trigger block. This is why the trigger block should never be removed from an Uberti '73.

Happy Trails of The Smith Shop did an action job on both my Uberti '73 and my Henry. He did not install the feather rods, but I had him do the modification with the setscrew to the firing pins of both rifles. Particullarly with the Henry, without the 73's trigger block, I feel much more confident with the added safety factor inside the gun. There are those who insist that their fingers never touch the trigger until after the lever is closed, but at the speed we shoot these guns I have seen some of those guys who are not doing what they think they are doing. I prefer to have the added safety factor inside the gun. It is an internal modification and not visible when the action is closed, and is completely SASS legal.

[will52100]

Thanks, I'll think about doing the mod.  I had a out of battery discharge, it was back when I was trying to completely eliminate the 45's blowback.  I tried neck sizing and everything else.  Well I got one round that didn't want to chamber, and tried hitting the leaver with my palm.  Needless to say I bumped the trigger while I was about it. The bullet went down the barrel, the leaver stung my palm a bit, and the brass case fire formed to the carrier.  I don't know if my palm stoping the leaver stopped the extension from flying out or not, but it was a definate pucker factor moment.  Needless to say I finaly gave up on neck sizing and all that and just accept a little blow by.  It all seems to collect on the lifter anyway, not the action.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy again

You may not have touched the trigger at all when you hit the lever with you palm. Some experiments were conducted a couple of years ago that showed it is possible for the firing pin of a toggle link rifle to develop enough momentum to fire a primer all by itself by doing exactly what you did. The hammer does not have to fall. If a round does not want to chamber, NEVER try to force it, particularly with a toggle link rifle. The firing pin can be propelled forward by its own momentum if you try to slam the lever closed. There were some films that documented this, and Happy Trails showed me the results of similar experiments that he conducted. NEVER try to force a round into the chamber, particularly with a toggle link rifle. You may cause an out of battery discharge, and if the round is not completely in the chamber the round can burst, sending brass shrapnel flying everywhere. It has happened.

[will52100]

You ain't got to worry about me doing that again.  That was scary enough not to want to try it again.  Since then I just full length size and they all chamber fine.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Will 5 ....., Howdy!

Here's an idea you can do that will allow you to still DO some of the "neck sizing" you mentioned, but still be safe.  Invest $11 - $13 (plus S&H) and get a Max cartridge gage from Midway or Dillon.  (I'm sure other places have them too.) 

The Stainless Steel version from Dillon:
http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/content/p/9/pid/23624/catid/3/_45_Colt_Dillon_Stainless_Steel_Case_Gage

The tool steel Version(s) from Midway:
(By L.E.Wilson) http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=980501&t=11082005

[will52100]

Thanks, I probably should get one, but the main reason I stoped neck sizing was that I wasn't realy getting any less blow by than the full length sized ones.  I generaly get more smoke by opening the action than by the actual firing.  Though I could use a case gage, I've got a 73 single action with fairly tight chamber that if there's one in question I slip it in to make sure it'll fit.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

I don't think you mentioned what your load is. The best thing you can do to prevent blowby with 45 Colt in a rifle is to generate as much pressure in the cartridge as possible, to seal the case in the chamber before the bullet moves out of the case. A full load of BP, a 250 grain bullet, and a heavy crimp are the best prescription for this. I only shoot 44-40 in my Cowboy rifles, the thin brass of 44-40 expands to seal the chamber so well I never get any blowby and the cases eject looking like they were fired with Smokeless Powder. With the thicker case wall of the 45 Colt, to get as good a seal as possible, stuff the case full of powder behind a heavy bullet and crimp it real good.

[will52100]

I guess I should have listed my pet load.  38 grains of 3f graf's black powder, 250 grain cast PRS big lube bullet, .030 wad, and lit off by CCI magnum primmer and a heavy crimp.  I was stuffing 40 grains in the case, but was bulging a few and they wouldn't chamber.  Works good and steel target or deer.  My brass has very little discoloration on it, mainly a little around the mouth.  Less actualy than smokless loads that are safe in the rifle.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Well, I can't fault that load. I thought maybe you were trying to use 200 grain bullets or something.

[will52100]

All my black powder loads are pretty much warthog loads.  I even use Swiss 3f in 38 long colt because of the small case.  Gives a more noticable "boom" over graf's or goex.  I've though about using it in my 45's for my Henry, but at 20$+ a pound I'd go broke twice as fast!

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy, Will - again.

Your loads sound like they're gonna do as much as possible.

The only other thing I'd mention is about the brass you use.  I talked to tech reps at both Sierra and Hodgdon, and both agree that - industry wide - Winchester is considered to be using the softest brass and Starline - which makes their brass close to military specs - is the hardest.  I use Win brass so it seals as well as possible in 45 Colt, so with that load of yours you should get the most case obturation (sp?) using the softest brass you can find.

[will52100]

with the price of brass I use anything I can get my hands on.  There's a couple of pards who shoot 45 colt and don't reload.  They have left there brass laying, one of use generaly walks the range after shooting and pics it up.  My favorite brass is starline, but it's a mix of PMC, magtec, starline, winchester, and others.  I haven't noticed any real big differance between winchester and starline with these loads.  Maybe if all I used was winchester.  I do use winchester in my 45-70 so I can get a couple more grains of powder in it.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

with the price of brass I use anything I can get my hands on.  There's a couple of pards who shoot 45 colt and don't reload.  (MY italics - SHB)  They have left there brass laying, one of use generaly walks the range after shooting and pics it up.  My favorite brass is starline, but it's a mix of PMC, magtec, starline, winchester, and others.  I haven't noticed any real big differance between winchester and starline with these loads.  Maybe if all I used was winchester.  I do use winchester in my 45-70 so I can get a couple more grains of powder in it.

I'm a brass scrounger, too!    Ya gotta love friends like that!  Yeah - I suspect "thinner" may be a good description like "softer brass."  A lot have found that they can squeeze more horsepower from a round with Win brass, 'cause they can stuff a bit more powder in 'em.  I started this game about 9-10 years ago and bought 2,000 new Win cases then.  They've all been reloaded at least 6 or 7 times, some as many as 10.  Been shooting BP 95% of the time for the last 5-6 years and those Win brass show NO signs of wear.  I doubt I've lost more than 5 to cracks in the whole time.  As Dick Dastardly (I think, over the phone) pointed out to me the other day, I'm gonna have to think about annealing the cases soon, or I AM gonna start losing a lot more of them.  The case mouths will/are simply hardening with repeated use.  "Work-hardening" is the term.  I hadn't thought about it in terms of pistol brass - just rifle ... and MOSTLY bottle-necked cases, not CAS stuff.  (45-70 being my sole exception.)

Will - sorry if I inadvertently hi-jacked the thread!   

[will52100]

Don't worry about hyjacking, it's good to ramble on, never know where it'll lead you.

What few splits I've had, I've had more out of PMC brass than any.  So far very few starlines have split on me.  I'm going on about 20 reloading with some in 38 long colt, but that first bacth is starting to split pretty regular.  I probably should aneal them.  I did aneal some 45 colt brass one time, got them too soft and the dies would crumple them trying to seat a bullet.  I used the torch and quench methoud.  I haven't tried just baking, have heard that that works, but anytime I form brass or nickle silver I use the torch and heat it red and quench.  Might need a differant methoud on cartriges than brass sheet.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Will

PLEASE tell me more about "bake annealing"!  (or anyone else, for that matter, who knows how to do it right)

As you can imagine, with 2000 Win cases - and probably another 1000 of other mixed brands, mostly Starline, I'm NOT looking forward to "torch quenching" all those rounds.  At MY speed, it'll take me years!   Unfortunately, my motto could   be:  "Never do today, what you can put off until tomorrow!"   

[will52100]

Basicly from what I remember you put them in a cake pan or such and bake them at 4 or 500 deg. for a couple of hours.  I've neaver tried it and don't know if it'll work.  Never heard of baking till I started reloading.  I've done a lot of metal forming with brass and nickle silver sheet(white brass) and I've always used the torch and quench to aneal it.   Unfortunatly that makes it butter soft for brass.  When I tried anealing cartrige brass I stood them on a wooden slat sitting over a bucket of water and heated them in a line and when I got the whole line hot just tilted the slat and they fell into the water.  But I heated the mouths to red hot and that made them too soft.  If they could have been loaded they would have sealed no matter how small the powder charge.  Of course I was using unsized cast bullets at the time, maybe sized down to .452 would have loaded fine.  May try that experiment again sometime.