GAF Class Structure and Battle Rifle Standards

[Charles Isaac]

Sgt. Drydock;

Great post!

But, the C-96 Mauser was NEVER sold W/O the Stripper Clips, as there is no practical way of loading one otherwise w/o them.
It is the only way to properly disengage the Bolt Hold Open Mechanism after the rounds are stripped off into the magazine & it is pulled out from the slot it rests in for loading purposes & the disengagement of the B.H.O.M. w/ that removal.
Most all of those I know that are involved in G.A.F. have rather Large Hands w/ fingers to match, which would make it extremely difficult to attempt to single load the C-96, which it wasn't designed to do in the first place.
So you either need to allow the use of the Stripper Clips or disallow the Use of the C-96 completely.
I can point you in the proper direction for Lit. on the C-96 if you wish to view that my statement is rather accurate.

As for the Ladies attire, there is enough Photographic & Written Evidence to prove that they completely matched what ever the Uniform that they were Aping, w/ the exception of the Inclusion of the Skirt. Basically they were a Female Version of the Uniform O&R's. Yes, they even wore Trowsers under their Skirts while on Campaign & Horseback riding back home. The most popular form of Head Cover seems to the Kepi from the same sources previously mentioned.

As I recall, Webley took out their first Patent on a Speed Loader was in 1883 & the First U.S. Patent was out of Ordnance Dept. in 1889 for issue to the Navy. So to disallow Period Speed Loaders seems rather silly to me. I can see Mordern ones, but ones of the Period?

Cheers
Flashy

Sir,

I understand your reasons for concerns on the awkwardness of single loading of the Mauser Military Automatic and the lack of speed loader usage for the Service Revolvers. Please allow me to express my views and some solutions to these issues.


The banning of the speed loaders and clips levels the playing field quite a bit. Weapons of various eras may compete fairly without the technological advantages of a more advanced system giving a shooter such a large mechanical edge. For example, the clip loading feature of the various Mausers, Mannlichers, Nagants and the M1895 Navy Rifle give them a decided advantage over the tube fed rifles like the Winchester Hotchkiss, Remington Keene, M1871/84 Mauser and single loading rifles such as the Remington Lees, Krags and early Lee Metford.


Most 19th century revolvers do not lend themselves to the use of a speed loader. The M1873 Colt, Lebel and Nagant revolvers are a few examples. The Smith & Wesson top breaks and hand ejectors, the Colt New Model Army and Navy Revolvers and Webleys have enough of an advantage with their faster ejection over the previously mentioned designs.

There are two ways to load the Mauser Military Automatic without a clip. A tool could be inserted into the clip slot that would hold the bolt to the rear while cartridges were inserted singly, but I do not know if this is legal for the GAF. The way I load the Mauser without a clip is to wrap
my fingers under the magazine and trigger guard and place my thumb over the retracted bolt and give it all a firm squeeze. This effectively retains the bolt to the rear so that it does not go home when the first cartridge is inserted. Some people place their thumb on the hammer and pull back on the bolt with the pointer and index fingers of the same hand, but I find this method awkward.

I would hate to see any of the allowed rifles and pistols disqualified. The experience of seeing all of these historic firearms manipulated and fired at one event is unprecedented!

[Dusty Tagalon]

On the C96, I wonder if it would be premitted to use the stripper clip to hold open, while inserting rounds manually, (to fit the single load method. I have tried this on my C-96, & I could load that way. If not, I would have to go along with having a strip of metal to hold open while manually loading.

However, my C-96 isn't operable to shoot, chamber is too wide, shells expand, & won't extract.

Dusty

[ColonelFlashman]

Sir,

I understand your reasons for concerns on the awkwardness of single loading of the Mauser Military Automatic and the lack of speed loader usage for the Service Revolvers. Please allow me to express my views and some solutions to these issues.


The banning of the speed loaders and clips levels the playing field quite a bit. Weapons of various eras may compete fairly without the technological advantages of a more advanced system giving a shooter such a large mechanical edge. For example, the clip loading feature of the various Mausers, Mannlichers, Nagants and the M1895 Navy Rifle give them a decided advantage over the tube fed rifles like the Winchester Hotchkiss, Remington Keene, M1871/84 Mauser and single loading rifles such as the Remington Lees, Krags and early Lee Metford.


Most 19th century revolvers do not lend themselves to the use of a speed loader. The M1873 Colt, Lebel and Nagant revolvers are a few examples. The Smith & Wesson top breaks and hand ejectors, the Colt New Model Army and Navy Revolvers and Webleys have enough of an advantage with their faster ejection over the previously mentioned designs.

There are two ways to load the Mauser Military Automatic without a clip. A tool could be inserted into the clip slot that would hold the bolt to the rear while cartridges were inserted singly, but I do not know if this is legal for the GAF. The way I load the Mauser without a clip is to wrap my fingers under the magazine and trigger guard and place my thumb over the retracted bolt and give it all a firm squeeze. This effectively retains the bolt to the rear so that it does not go home when the first cartridge is inserted. Some people place their thumb on the hammer and pull back on the bolt with the pointer and index fingers of the same hand, but I find this method awkward.

I would hate to see any of the allowed rifles and pistols disqualified. The experience of seeing all of these historic firearms manipulated and fired at one event is unprecedented!

Leveling the Playing Field has never worked & Never will. I've been in this shooting sport long enough, 1984, to have witnessed all attempts @ this & it's only changed things for the worse!

I am Specifically made my statement about the C-96 Mauser Semi-Auto Pistole, which as I stated Previously, is not designed to be single loaded , the two methods of single loading cartridges you mentioned, while a good attempt, aren't worth a damn & can Only lend itself to an A/D because someones fingers wont be strong enough for the job, as for a special tool to hold the bolt open, one just might as well use a Stripper Clip in the first place as it was designed to be used. Plus I made No statements about Rifles that used stripper clips. 

There were also a style of period pistole stripper clip speed loader for single actions made out of Bakelite & a semi-ridged rubber used exparamently by various militaries around the world & in the U.S.

Oh & as I recollect, the Lee-Medford used a type of stripper clip for loading purposes, but it had a Magazine Cut-Off so that its 8 rounds were held in reserve & then single rounds were then dropped onto it for volley firing. The Magazine Cut-Off was only disengaged & the 8 round magazine employed in emergency situations only, as in your position possibly being over-run by a Fuzzy-Wuzzy mass charge.
A magazine cut-off was also employed w/ the Winchester-Hotchkiss & used in the Same method & under the similar circumstances as the Lee-Medfords.

If you've never seen a Period Cylindrical Speed Loaders, they look & function Nothing like Modern Cylindrical Speed Loaders, are rather clumsy to use & unless handled expertly have tendency to dump the rounds before you are able to insert them into the chambers & because of this they give no real advantage. 

[Charles Isaac]

Leveling the Playing Field has never worked & Never will. I've been in this shooting sport long enough, 1984, to have witnessed all attempts @ this & it's only changed things for the worse!

I am Specifically made my statement about the C-96 Mauser Semi-Auto Pistole, which as I stated Previously, is not designed to be single loaded , the two methods of single loading cartridges you mentioned, while a good attempt, aren't worth a damn & can Only lend itself to an A/D because someones fingers wont be strong enough for the job, as for a special tool to hold the bolt open, one just might as well use a Stripper Clip in the first place as it was designed to be used. Plus I made No statements about Rifles that used stripper clips. 

There were also a style of period pistole stripper clip speed loader for single actions made out of Bakelite & a semi-ridged rubber used exparamently by various militaries around the world & in the U.S.

Oh & as I recollect, the Lee-Medford used a type of stripper clip for loading purposes, but it had a Magazine Cut-Off so that its 8 rounds were held in reserve & then single rounds were then dropped onto it for volley firing. The Magazine Cut-Off was only disengaged & the 8 round magazine employed in emergency situations only, as in your position possibly being over-run by a Fuzzy-Wuzzy mass charge.
A magazine cut-off was also employed w/ the Winchester-Hotchkiss & used in the Same method & under the similar circumstances as the Lee-Medfords.

If you've never seen a Period Cylindrical Speed Loaders, they look & function Nothing like Modern Cylindrical Speed Loaders, are rather clumsy to use & unless handled expertly have tendency to dump the rounds before you are able to insert them into the chambers & because of this they give no real advantage. 

Good Day Sir!

While I may disagree with some of your reasoning, I do respect your opinion and look forward to meeting you on the field at Ft. Hartsuff come next October.

However, my C-96 isn't operable to shoot, chamber is too wide, shells expand, & won't extract.

Dusty

Dusty, Sir,

You may have already looked into having your pistol relined, but I must say that  I used  Redmans as part of the resurrection process  of one of these unusual weapons.   http://www.redmansrifling.com/mauser.htm  They are a bit more expensive, but reasonable, and thier work is superb. Many have used them and all are very satisfied with thier work, but  I can not say the same for the other commodities that perform this service.

[Drydock]

Ah, Flashie, yer a pip, and its good to hear from you.

As for Speedloaders in general, its a technological limitation independent of time period, moreover I do not see the need to have folks scrabbling around looking for the rare preserved period loader, or spending money to recreate one, in an attempt to one-up other folks on the firing line, using what was largly an experimental item.  "Leveling the Playing field" really has not much to do with it.  Rather than say "You can use this one, but not that one"  simpler just to get rid of the things all together.

Now you bring up a highly valid point on the C-96.  I was not aware of the limitations you express in the Mauser design.  I'll research this per your request, and see what I can come up with.  I like seeing the Winston Churchills favorite sidearm on the line, we may need to make an allowance for it, as it is the only significant self loader seen in our time period. 

[Bull Schmitt]

Gentlemen,

Just a thought. If we eliminated the time element from the matches and emphasized accuracy the use of speed loaders would not be an issue. The time element is something we inherited from CAS and may not be appropriate for GAF.

Of course I have been out in left field before.

Col Bull

[Drydock]

No, this is a combat match, take away the timer and it becomes a target shoot.  In combat, speed of engagement is critical, and we are nothing if not a combat scenario oriented outfit.

[Bull Schmitt]

I thought I would just run it up the flag pole and see if anyone saluted it. I think you are probably right.

[Pitspitr]

No, this is a combat match, take away the timer and it becomes a target shoot.  In combat, speed of engagement is critical, and we are nothing if not a combat scenario oriented outfit.

I agree. I also think we need to incorporate some stages that make you think a little.

[Bow View Haymaker]

I kind of like the full pistol reloads.  I thought I was getting better at it with my Remington conversion by the end of the Grand muster

[Shotgun Steve]

 Hello Gentlemen,

In the GAF list of approved firearms for use in GAF Marksmanship competitions... you have the
Colt 1871-72 OPEN TOP MODEL RIMFIRE listed. As I am sure most everyone here knows that there
are no repros that I am aware of that are made in rimfire. So why is it listed as such?

I am planning on shooting in the Scout catagory using an 1866 Yellow Boy short rifle and an 1871-72 Open
Top both in .44 special caliber but loaded with black powder. Are these two firearms acceptable
in that catagory? Thank you in advance for any help.

Shotgun Steve

[Drydock]

Yes, both weapons are acceptable.  While weapons are often listed in their orginal calibers, the GAF recognizes the need for reasonable caliber substitutions.

[Shotgun Steve]

Thanks Sarge. I thought that was the answer I would recieve, but I don't like to assume anything.
Take Care
Shotgun Steve

[Texas Lawdog]

I am in the process of aquiring a Krag rifle for the GAF Muster in the fall.  I am not a reloader, so is ammo available in this caliber?

[Drydock]

Unfortunatly, while Remington and Winchester do make runs of .30 US every year, it is loaded with a 180 jacketed soft point at 2450 FPS.  This ammo cannot be used at a GAF shoot, which requires a CAS spec lead bullet (Gas check allowed at Match discretion) at no more than 1400 fps.  I'm afraid you either need to reload, or find someone who does. 

[RattlesnakeJack]

TL -

Lots of reloading info and components available, if you can find someone to load for you ......

Although original ammunition had jacketed bullets, safety and target preservation dictate use of cast bullets only in this type of shooting, of course ......

There are some commercial custom loaders who offer .30-40 loads, but you would have to ensure that they will do them with cast bullets.
Here is one loader who offers it  (Hard Cast Lead 165 gr. bullet; price $30.94/20) - http://www.customcartridge.com/products/browse_legend.php

Here is one writeup you may find of interest - http://www.frfrogspad.com/kragrifl.htm

[RattlesnakeJack]

.... a GAF shoot ..... requires a CAS spec lead bullet (Gas check allowed at Match discretion) .......

Are gas-checked bullets are allowed on the range at Ord for the GAF National Muster?

"And now for the rest of the story ...."
I am pondering a rather significant change of pace this year .... i.e. entering in the Mil-spec Repeater class, and using my .303 'Rifle, Magazine, Lee-Enfield'  (MLE) .....


Unfortunately, the bandolier in that photo is actually a rather glaring anachronism .... it is a Pattern 1903 bandolier, designed to accommodate cartridges held in 5-round chargers which came in with the introduction that year of the 'Rifle, Short, Magazine, Lee-Enfield' (i.e. SMLE)  The design of the MLE requires the magazine to be charged one cartridge at a time, so the correct accoutrement for it is the Pattern 1888 Bandolier.  I do have one of the rather nice reproductions of that bandolier offered by IMA .... just haven't ever gotten around to re-photographing my MLE with it ....


As an aside, here is one image of a Canadian Boer War serviceman with his Magazine Lee-Enfield rifle and revolver (almost certainly either a Colt Model 1878 or Colt New Service) and equipped with a Pattern 1888 bandolier .....  Trooper, Lord Strathcona's Horse -

This Boer War mounted unit was composed mainly of former North West Mounted Police (many of them still actively serving but granted leaves of absence to serve in South Africa) and western stockmen.  The unit was raised and equipped at the personal expense of Baron Strathcona and Mount Royal (Scottish-born Canadian financier and politician Sir Donald Smith, former Governor of the Hudspn's Bay Company, and President of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company.) 

Lord Strathcona's Horse was commanded by Colonel (later Sir) Samuel Benfield Steele ..... who has been referred to as the "Quintessential Mountie".   He was the third man to enroll  in the newly formed NWMP in 1873, and held the rank of Superintendent when assigned in 1898 to NWMP command in the Yukon Territory during the Klondike gold rush.  In 1899 he was granted leave of absence to serve in the Boer War.  Here he is in his uniform as Officer Commanding Lord Strathcona's Horse -

[Drydock]

You would need to ask Pitspitr that, though I've yet to encounter any problems with the Gas Checks on my .30 US rounds.  BTW, was there a carbine version of the MLE?  Or the MLM for that matter?

[RattlesnakeJack]

Greetings, Sergeant!

Yes, there were standard carbine versions -

Carbine, Magazine Lee-Metford -


Carbine, Magazine Lee-Enfield -


These carbines were designed for issue to cavalry, primarily, and have no provision for a bayonet.  They had shallower 6-round magazines in lieu of the 10-round magazine of the MLM MkII  and MLE rifles (the MkI MLM rifle had an 8-round magazine.)

A special "contract carbine" model was produced for New Zealand, starting in 1900 ....  these were modified  MLM and MLE carbines with a shortened fore-end and nosecap with bayonet mount  for the Pattern 1888 bayonet -


Finally, in 1903, a similar contract carbine was produced for the Royal Irish Constabulary -


The Boer War was a great learning experience for the British military - they started out fielding traditional infantry and cavalry for the most part, but as the war progressed mounted infantry proved to be by far the most useful troops for the conditions encountered in South Africa.   However, the long infantry-pattern rifle was rather cumbersome for such troops,  as will be quite evident in these photos of Canadian Mounted Rifles ....

The standard method of carrying the infantry rifle on horseback, with the butt resting in a "short bucket" and steadied by a strap from the fore-end going around the right arm, is illustrated in these first two photos -
  - 

To be "at the ready" and able to dismount quickly,  the rifle was generally carried in one of these ways -
  - 

Note that both of the fellows above have regular slings on their rifles.  In this image of the 2nd Regiment of Canadian Mounted Rifles on the march, the fellow on the left  in front carries his rifle slung over the back, while the man beside him carries his across the saddle pommel (the arm strap is clearly visible dangling from the fore-end of that rifle -


At any rate, the unsuitability of the long rifle for mounted carry and the desire to have a standardized weapon in lieu of rifle and carbine versions resulted in the adoption in 1903 of the "Rifle, Short, Magazine Lee-Enfield"  - the renowned "SMLE" which served the British Empire so well during WWI -

[Drydock]

Its interesting that the Americans and British, both engaged in irregular campaigns at the turn of the century, came to the same conclusion at the same time, both developing "Short Rifles" in 1903.