Colt ser. #s - BP guns

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy!

Does anyone have one of the books that shows Colt serial numbers and their date of manufacture?  I posted this as an answer to someone else on the Darksider's Den, but I'll ask here, too.


Do we know EXACTLY when Uberti started making the forgings that Iver Johnson worked on , then assembled and then sent to Colt for finishing?

The reason I ask is because I have a Colt 2nd Gen., 1st Mod. 1848 Dragoon.  The 2nd Gen BP guns are listed as having been made from 1972-1981.  It's my UNDERSTANDING (as differentiated from known, provable FACTS  ) that Colt actually made their BP guns for the 1st year or so before passing the duties on to Uberti/Iver Johnson.  (Incidentally, I also have an 1860 I.J.-marked Uberti that I bought about 1975 that is one of only a few that were marked "Iver Johnson" and Uberti.  This IS during the time that the whole Colt/IJ/Uberti thing was going on.  I mention this because my Italian IJ, made at the same time that IJ & Uberti were making the Colts, while a FINE gun, is GREATLY different (mostly the quality of the metal, internal serial #s and slightly better finishing) than my Colt Dragoon, ser. # 26,8XX.)


I did some computer checking and found the range of serial numbers Colt used on their Dragoons and I think from the info that Colt simply continued the serial numbers on the 2nd Gen. guns from where they left off back in the 1860/1870 timeframe.  I don't currently have the ca$h to get the letter from Colt which is $150, I think.

Thanks,   Jeff "Steel Horse Bailey"

[Major 2]

Val Forgett sold Colt the rough components to build the first 2nd Gen. 1851 Navy's, which were completed at the Hartford factory from 1971 through 1973.
These were the first C Series 1851 Navy's....  including Grant and Lee Navy sets.
Had it not been for Forgett & Uberti these would have happened.

Lou Imperato purchased the Iver Johnson Arms Company in Fitchburg, Massachusetts , In 1973 . It was there that all F Series standard production models were manufactured as The Authentic Colt Blackpowder Series.
The barrels, cylinders and backstraps were cast in Italy, as Val had done. 
The frames, the center pins, nipples, all of the screws, springs were made in house at Iver Johnson
Every F Series gun was hand-fitted &  finished at Iver Johnson then ship to Hartford for final inspection.

The 51 Navy was followed by the 3rd Dragoon, and the 1860 Army in that order.
By 1982 , the line included most all of Colt's C&B originals including several commemorative sets.
Even Colt's Custom Shop got into the act and produced a limited series of factory engraved models.

Some where around 1982, I bought a Walker from Mid-South Shooters supply.
It was a Uberti ( nicely finished ) with no inspector marks & a one line Colt's address on the barrel ... and A.Uberti in small stamp under the lever near the keeper spring... It is to date the only one I ever saw so marked (sadly it was stolen along with my 2nd Gen 3rd Dragoon right out of my pommal holsters at the 1984 Olustee Battle reenactment )
I was told Colt raised a stink and the Address line disappeared on Uberti marked models.



EDIT: I meant to add this...
Index   http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ga_handguns/cap_ball/index.html

[St. George]

If your Dragoon's serial numbered in the 26,8XX range - I can save you some money.

According to R.L. Wilson's production tables - your Dragoon was made between 1980-1981 when they produced 2856 of that Model.

The F-Series - 1st, 2d and 3d Model Dragoons share the same serial number range.

Here's another quick reference:

St. George's Notes XVI - 'Real' BP Colts...
« on: April 07, 2005, 10:38:02 AM »      

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Many C&WAS folks carry and use cap and ball revolvers as a part of their Impression - and with good reason - there were thousands available - beyond what was carried during 'the War', and brought home by returning veterans.

After the Civil War - they were available through the sales of Government surplus, and for someone headed  West - they were fairly cheap.

The big 1860 Army Colts - and the smaller 1851 Navys - and all of the rest - saw service far past the their initial Military service and well into the Cartridge Era - many eventually being converted for cartridge use, after the Rollin White patent for bored-through cylinders elapsed.
Of course - this was true of many other guns - but the Colt was more or less ubiquitous - most likely because of its military connotation and the subsequent familiarity with it.

In the early 1970's - Colt decided to reproduce much of their original product line - starting with the famed 'Squareback' Model 1851 Navy and continuing on to the big Dragoons - beautifully-made guns, all - with the rich Colt Blue, and distinctive color-case-hardening.

Much has been speculated about as to the 'actual' manufacturers of these fine revolvers - and this link will illuminate much of the history behind their recent production.

A note - this article really concerns the 'true' 2d Generation Colt Black Powder revolver.
Though the  later 'Signature Series' is touched upon - it doesn't seem to have the 'cachet' of being a 'real' Colt...

The article was written by Dennis Adler - who wrote "Metallic Cartridge Conversions" - a worthwhile book for the folks interested in the time frame immediately following the Civil War.

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ga_handguns/cap_ball/index.html

I'm sure you'll find it of interest.

Scouts Out!

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Well, Thanks!

It's a fine gun that I prize greatly.  And it's one great shooter!

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

SHB<

Here is the skinny from Dennis Adler and John Allen's 's book The BlueBook Of Modern BlackPowder Arms.

COLT´S MANUFACTURING COMPANY, INC.
Current firearms manufacturer with headquarters located in West Hartford, CT.
Colt´s Manufacturing Company, Inc. is the previous manufacturer of 2nd Generation Colt percussion revolvers located in Hartford, CT. Colt used subcontractors to supply rough castings for the manufacture of these black powder pistols. Throughout the production years 1971-1982, these rough castings were produced in Italy and the reproductions were completed in the United States. Initially, Val Forgett and Navy Arms provided these parts/components during 1971-73. Lou Imperato supplied these parts from 1974 to 1976. In both instances, these revolvers were assembled and finished in Colt´s facilities in Connecticut. Finally, from 1978 to 1982, Colt subcontracted both parts procurement and final production to Lou Imperato and Iver Johnson Arms in Middlesex, NJ. Colt percussion revolvers produced by Iver Johnson had frames, center pins, nipples, and screws manufactured in the United States. In all instances, these revolvers were manufactured in accordance with Colt´s strict specifications and quality control. Additionally, Colt´s performed final inspection for all models. All percussion models manufactured from 1971 through 1982, either by Colt or its subcontractor, are regarded as authentic Colt pistols and not Italian replicas.
The Colt Custom Shop also produced a limited number of special editions through the early 1990s from 2nd Generation production inventory.

"F" Series
1ST MODEL DRAGOON
- .44 cal. perc., 7.5 in. round barrel, hinged loading lever, six-shot cylinder with oval bolt cuts and roll engraved Texas Ranger and Indian scene, "F" Series Colt Blue barrel and cylinder, color case hardened frame, loading lever, plunger, and hammer, brass backstrap and square back trigger guard, one-piece walnut stocks, 66 oz. 3,700 mfg. 1980-82.


COLT BLACKPOWDER ARMS CO.
Previous manufacturer and retailer of 3rd Generation Colt Black Powder pistols and muskets located in Brooklyn, NY 1994-2002.
All 3rd Generation Colt blackpowder models are also referred to as Signature Series Models.
A reprise of the original Colt Blackpowder line, along with historic models not offered in the 2nd Generation, and a new series of Commemoratives, each model (with the exception of the Heirloom Tiffany 1860 Army and 1842 Texas Paterson) bears the Sam Colt signature on the backstrap. These 3rd Generation models were manufactured under an authorized licensing agreement with Colt Firearms by Colt Blackpowder Arms Company – the same company (and many of the same craftsmen) responsible for the 2nd Generation Colt revolvers. Although parts for the Signature Series were cast in Italy, they were fully assembled and hand finished in the United States using the proprietary Colt formulas for bluing and color case hardening.
Colt Blackpowder Arms Company Signature Series revolvers are regarded as authentic Colt pistols. The 3rd Generation models have original Colt markings, including the barrel address and serial number stampings. There are no foreign proof marks on these authentic Colt models.

1ST MODEL DRAGOON
- .44 cal. perc., 7.5 in. barrel, oval bolt cuts in cylinder, color case hardened frame, loading lever, plunger, and hammer, square back trigger guard, one-piece walnut grips. Mfg. 1998-2002.

No production numbers given or s/N's on the above

I thought that the Proofhouse would list the 2nd Gen Dragoons as well as the 1851 navy's but they don't. Just the 2nd Gen Navies.
Shoot!

Is yours an "F" series?

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Charlie -

According to what St. George wrote from RL Wilson's figures, mine is 2nd Gen, produced between 1980-81 and may-or-may not be the F series.  (see: "The F-Series - 1st, 2d and 3d Model Dragoons share the same serial number range.")  The wording is somewhat confusing to me, but it sounds like - if I interpret from all three posts, that it IS an F series, made in the US, and was made at the tail end of the 2nd Gen. timeframe.  I wish I had the box and any paperwork that came with it.

I only know that the previous owner had gotten it some time ago and told me the info I wrote in my first post.  Thanks

[St. George]

Keep an eye on ebay and on the 'net - you'd be surprised at what can show up when a gunshop goes out of business, or cleans house.

All sorts of Colt boxes appear at different times - and the Colt paper is available, as well.

These Colts are collectable but not 'that' collectable - yet - so the odd accessories aren't bringing the prices that they will.

You'll be looking for a Black box with a thin cardboard sleeve, cut-out foam lining, and there'll be a small pamphlet.
The guns were wrapped in plastic.

The end sticker will have pertinent information - finish, barrel length, caliber - and the usual factory addresses/logo.

The box is pretty big, and by this time, the finish is probably flaking.

The early 1851 Navys had a wood-grain box, a cardboard sleeve, a couple of pamphlets, and were wrapped in a treated paper.

The 'better' gun shows often have folks who deal strictly in the accessories and papers, and some will deal in the accouterments, as well.

Those folks' prices will be higher, since they'll know what they have - and plus, they'll see the naked lust in your eyes...

A Colt 'Letter' on a gun this new won't have anything unusual on it other than what you already know - though it should tell you the initial retail sales outlet.

To me - that's not worth anything.

Good Luck.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Steel Horse Bailey]

.....
A Colt 'Letter' on a gun this new won't have anything unusual on it other than what you already know - though it should tell you the initial retail sales outlet.

To me - that's not worth anything.

I agree.

I really was looking only for date information, not the original distributor.

Thanks for all the info.

Jeff

[Major 2]

I bought my first one (an 1860 Army) in 1979 I can't say what ever happened to the box.
I still have that gun, now with an R&D conversion Cyl.
My second was the 3rd Model Dragoon that was stolen, that one had a wood grain box (I no longer had the gun so I gave the box away)
My 3rd was a 51 Navy , I bought it loose without the box or papers, same with my next 60 Army ( both I still have )

I never gave much thought to saving the boxes or the collectability, I've shot these guns for years.
One... the 30 years old 1860, gets a steady diet of Goex BP 45 LC's.

I also had a 2 3rd Gen's (a 51 & a 60 ) but sold those with the Gray boxes. I never like the engraved Signature on the backstrap.