Found side match gun. . . Is it SASS legal? What's it worth?

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Pards,

I found me a cool looking side match gun.  I think it's SASS legal but I'm not positive.  Also, I don't know quite what they are worth.  This one can be had for around $150.00

It's in .32 S&W caliber and is said to be ok to shoot with factory issue SAAMI spec ammo in that caliber.  I'd shoot it with black powder anyway.

Your input and comments please.

DD-DLoS

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Dick;  What is it?  I'd stick with a known brand.  !.  S&W,  then H&R or Iver Johnson.  I'd be wary of anything else.

[Dick Dastardly]

I should have said. . .

It's a S&W Safety Hammerless in .32 S&W.  The barrel is 3".  I think S&W called it a "New Departure" model 4.

Thanks for asking.

DD-DLoS

[Delmonico]

If I had the money I'd buy it SASS legal or not.

[Pitspitr]

It sure looks like my Spencer Saftey Hammerless, except that the Spencer isn't a top break. I agree with what Del said.

[Deadeye Don]

For  $150.00?  Hell yes buy it.  I cant see why it would not be SASS legal.  Do you know when they were made?

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Yes, it is SASS legal as a Pocket Pistol.

"A pocket pistol is a small frame, fixed sight, pre-1900 design revolver having a barrel length
of four inches or less. Pocket pistols must be .31 caliber or larger. Model “P” Colts and
clones and revolvers with swing out cylinders are specifically not allowed regardless of
caliber, frame size, or barrel length. Pocket pistols may not be used as or converted to main
match revolvers."

According to Supica and Nahas there were 3 models made of the .32 Safety Hammerless, also known as the New Departure, and sometimes just called Lemon Squeezers because of the grip safety. Caliber 32 S&W.

1st Model, made 1888-1902. (corrected from 1882-1902)SN range 1-91417. 32 cal 5 shot fluted cylinder, top break, standard barrel lengths 2" (rare, known as the 'bicycle guns' because they were convenient to carry on the new-fangled bicycles), 3", & 3 1/2". Key to identifying this model is the barrel release latch in back center of top strap pushes down to open.

As New $950 Exc $475 Fine $285 VG $235 Good $185 Fair $125 Poor $75

2nd Model , made 1902-1909, SN range 91418-170000. Standard barrel lengths 3", 3 1/2". 2" and 6" are rare. Key to identifying this model is the serial #, T shaped barrel latch lifts to open, pinned front sight.

As New $450 Exc $300 Fine $235 VG $170 Good $135 Fair $100 Poor $65

3rd Model, made 1909-1937 SN range roughly 170000-242981. Standard barrel lengths 3", 3 1/2". 2" and 6" barrels are rare. Identification Key is serial #, T shaped barrel latch lifts to open, front sight usually forged onto 3" & 3 1/2" barrels.

As New $950 Exc $475 Fine $285 VG $235 Good $185 Fair $125 Poor $75

These prices are per Standard Catalog of S&W, by Supica and Nahas, 3rd edition, published 2006. Your milage may vary.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Not only are the Lemon Squeezers SASS legal, but they're a good little gun. If it works for $150, it would be a good deal.

[St. George]

Without knowing the serial number - it looks like a 4th or 5th Model, thanks to the latch.

Either can be shot with factory smokeless.

I just picked up a 'very nice' blued  1st Model for about half that - and it's tight and clean - obviously shot very little and probably carried in a coat pocket.

It was built around 1884.

They're easy to work on, too - so if you do get it and want to, send me a PM.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Driftwood Johnson]

Smith only made 3 models of the 32 Safety Hammerless.

They made 5 models of the 38 Safety Hammerless.

[Dick Dastardly]

Well, there ya have it.  I'm goin' to cough up the money and get it.  I have one belly gun, but then I can always use another.  Especially since they will both shoot the same ammo and I have mold, brass and dies on hand.

DD-DLoS

[St. George]

And so they did - it was the latch that I was lookig at and not the caliber.

That style of latch was used on both the 2d and 3d Models.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Adirondack Jack]

I like my exposed hammer .32 "Double Action" (the model name, and origin of the term we all know), circa 1882 or 3.  Under $100, including tax.  I have shot it with VERY  light loads of WEIGHED Unique and a light for caliber (might be 77 grain IIRC) bullet, but it likes a "just touching" load of 777 or BP too.  I wish I could find a SA sear for mine, as it is DAO at this point, but it's great for style points when carried in my suspender holster

Driftwood, are you sure the lemon squeezer came out in 1882?  I know the "Double Action" debuted in 1880, and I thought there was more of a time lapse between then and the New Departure guns.  I woulda thought maybe 1892???  That also fits expected sales to 1902, as S&W sold a peepot load of these guns (in 2 1/2 years they were at 32XXX for the DA, and sales  exploded after that.  91000 seems a little light for 20 years sales of the squeezer).

[litl rooster]

Howdy Pards,

I found me a cool looking side match gun.  I think it's SASS legal but I'm not positive.  Also, I don't know quite what they are worth.  This one can be had for around $150.00

It's in .32 S&W caliber and is said to be ok to shoot with factory issue SAAMI spec ammo in that caliber.  I'd shoot it with black powder anyway.

Your input and comments please.

DD-DLoS

That's what I shoot....It's more accurate at 15 yards than my 9mm........I haven't loaded Black yet haven't found dies for it.  If you can get it for Buck and half it's good price


Since you brought it up (pocket guns) and St. George and all the rest of you are looking in.  Is this one worth it.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=80652220   it's my favorite flavor .44-40

[St. George]

The .32 Safety Hammerless - aka 'Lemonsqueezer' , 'New Departure or 'Safety' - was first produced beginning in 1888.

First Model - 1888-1902 - 91,417 made  (1-91417)

Second Model - 1902-1909 - 78.500 made. (91418-170000)

Third Model - 1909-1937 - 73,000 made. (170000-242981)

The .38 Safety Hammerless - same names as above - was first produced beginning in 1887.

First Model - 1887 - 5,250 made. (1-5250)

Second Model - 1887-1890 - 37,350 made (5251-42483)

Third Model - 1890-1898 - 73,500 made. (42484-116002)

Fourth Model - 1898-1907 - 104,000 (116003-220000)

Fifth Model - 1907-1940 - 41,500 (220000-261493)

(serial number and production dates from 'The Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson' - Supica, Naha)

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[litl rooster]

BTW last months American Rifleman did a feature on them

[Driftwood Johnson]

Sorry made a typo. First Model was 1888-1902.

[Dick Dastardly]

Interesting gun Lil Rooster,

I'm wondering if it's a pocket pistol?  Said it was full size in the info section.  I'd offer the $400 min bid and see where she goes.

DD-DLoS

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Lil' Rooster;  For dies, I picked up a really "economical" set of LEE .32 acp dies.  Can't recall jest now what shell holder I use .  .223 I think?  Probably .32 S&W and magnum dies are quite coomon now.

[St. George]

The one on Gunbroker's a full-sized belt revolver.

They were quite common in the States and were a low-priced 'alternative' to the better revolvers of the era.

Mpstly - they competed with the various Webley revolvers who'd made a name for themselves through building high-quality guns.

These weren't.

Where he gets the idea that folks removed the triggerguard is a mystery, since there'd been no need to do so.

Typically, the triggerguard was held in place by two fairly short, usually hand-cut screws, so if those got removed at some time and never reunited, then that's the best explanation.

What's it worth?

Depends on your perceived need for something like this, and it's true condition.

If it helps - they were made of iron (as were pretty much every other revolver of the era) - but there was a lot of 'cottage industry' construction to them, since many were farmed out by the parent firm to different 'gunsmiths' in France and especially Belgium, and there wasn't the parts interchangeability associated with an American or British built product.

Parts 'can' be a daunting prospect, if you plan on using it very much, since they're not built for harsh service, but for sale to a guy looking for a bargain.

The 'Bulldog' appelation is also a marketing tool - trading on the more popular Webley.

A 'Bulldog' is a short-barrelled, concealable pocket revolver - ranging in caliber from .320 - .450.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!