BP revolver for a newbie

[grymster2007]

Hi,

Name's grymster2007 and some nice feller over at TFL referred me to you fine folks. Maybe you could help me out.

I like black powder and put together a couple of single-shot pistol kits from Dixie. A Plains Pistol and a N.O. Ace. Shot the Plains last year at camp and it was kinda fun! But I might like a revolver. Don't have much time for building one, so maybe I'll buy it assembled.

After looking at the revos, it became apparent that at least for some of them, one could install a conversion cylinder and shoot cartridges also. Excellent; all that much more fun!

I like the Uberti 1858 New Army and it looks like Taylor's sells an R&D conversion cylinder for it. Now I'm not married to this gun/cylinder combo, but I like the looks of it and it seems the cartridge is readily available.

CAS looks fun and maybe someday I'd like to try it out, but for the time being, this will be a plinker.

Does the Uberti/R&D combo seem like a reasonable thing to do?

What else might I want to know?

Thanks

grym

[Ozark Tracker]

glad to see you made the trip over here,  When I saw your post, I knew you would enjoy it over here.

I think you'll find a lot of knowledgelable folks over here.

[grymster2007]

Thanks for the friendly welcome Mr. Ozark Tracker!

Perusing your boards here, it looks like this is the right place to ask my questions about BP. I'm just a little worried that I could get sucked into this CAS thing! Looks like you people know how to have fun.

Thanks again,

grym

[Sod Buster]

I'm just a little worried that I could get sucked into this CAS thing! Looks like you people know how to have fun.

Don't be worried...just let it happen. 

[Cactus Cris]

To answer yer ??--The 58 with a R&D cylinder is a hoot!!  I have a pair in .36 and shoot 38spl in them.  Only drawback is that you have to use a hollowbase boolit.  The .44's are great.  You can use the 45 lc, or the 45 schoefields, or even the new short 45's.  One thing I might mention is that you might look into getting a set of TRESO or TRM replacement nipples first thing.  The Italians just can't seem to be able to make nipps that are consistant in length or diameter.  You can get them from Thunder RIdge.
  ENJOY!!

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I have 58's with R&D cylinders as my main match pistols. For my hand, they fit like nothing else. I can't imagine having any others for now. Except for more of 'em.

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy grymster2007, and welcome!

Friendly folks hang out here.

As for which pistol you settle on, if you have time, go to some SASS matches and shoot some guns.  You will find that there are plenty of pards that will be only too pleased to hand you some pistols and their favorite loads.  Ok, shoot them and take notes.  Soon enough you will develop your preferences.

Each pistol will have it's strong points and it's faults.  I like Ruger Old Armys.  They aren't PC, but they are strong and very reliable.  ROAs cost a bit more, but they will outlast at least two of most anything else.  That's my Two Cents worth.

Enjoy the sport, make friends and have fun.

DD-DLoS

[Ransom Gaer]

grymster2007,

What Cactus Cris said is true.  For the cap and ball cylinder get the Treso or TRM nipples.  They flat work.  All of my cap and ball revolvers have them.

I have two New Model Armies and both have the R&D conversion cylinders.  They are great.  Both revolvers are tack drivers.  One word of caution with the R&D cylinders, order the one that is correct for the brand of revolver you get.  That means either a Pietta of a Uberti.  The two brands are different in size and so parts for one won't necessarily fit the other.  I use them regularly as my main match pistols in CAS.  Otherwise I use two 1860 Army Colts.

Ransom Gaer

[grymster2007]

Them's some nice irons Marshall Will Wingman!

Looks like Pietta or Uberti. I'll bet some of you have a preference?

I didn't see an Uberti in 5.5". Can those be had?

I think the models at Cabela's are Pietta? Both the 5.5" and the 8"?
Dixie seems to have both and Euro Arms also. How's the Euro?

I'm in N. CA and see there are CAS clubs nearby. At some point I will go check them out. My wife recently she saw a bit of a SASS meet on the tube and she liked it! How about that!

I'll be marrying off the daughter in a few weeks and maybe by then and with a little help from you folks, I'll have it figured out. Probably order one and see how it fits. If I like it, I'll get a conversion cylinder.

Don't be worried...just let it happen.

That's what I'm afraid of! Already have more hobbies than I do time to pursue them.

You folks sure are a friendly bunch and I appreciate your help! 

grym

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Looks like Pietta or Uberti. I'll bet some of you have a preference?

I didn't see an Uberti in 5.5". Can those be had?

The bottom one is a 5.5" Uberti. I just replaced the loading lever with a long one that I shortened. It doesn't work any better but I like the looks. The top one is a Uberti 8" one that has been cut down to 6".

[Noz]

Welcome to the fire.
Please, please go to a few shoots before you buy. The 58 Remington, 1851 Colt and 1860 Colt all feel completely different in your hands.
You may find the the Remington is exactly what you want and you may find that an 1851 feels like it grew in your hand. There is no use in having to buy two or three times before you get what you really want.  This is the voice of experience talking.
When I went to my first SASS shoot I had to fight people away that were wanting me to try their guns. Just go to the match director and tell him you would like to try as many guns as possible and ask him to spread the word. I bought Remingtons and then found that an 1860 points where I look and is much easier for me to shoot one handed for the Frontiersman category. Sold the Remingtons and bought the Colts.
This is my opinion and is not shared by everyone. Why buy a cap and ball gun and then try to make it into a cartridge gun? The same amount of money will buy you a nice cartridge gun and you will avoid the problems associated with the older style of gun.

[Deadeye Don]

Nozzelrag makes some really good points.  Unless you plan to collect firearms as a hobby and not just to shoot CAS and if your finances are limited, check out some pards guns at matches before purchasing yourself.  I do think that the R and D cylinders are great in the percussion guns.  There is nothing cooler than shooting a percussion style gun in a match whether you use percussion or whether you use a conversion cylinder.  I have RandD cylinders for every percussion gun I have (except for the Paterson because nobody makes them).  Regards.  Deadeye.

[grymster2007]

The 58 Remington, 1851 Colt and 1860 Colt

I plan to hold a few different models in my hands, but I really like what the top strap adds to the looks.

Please, please go to a few shoots before you buy.

I'll try to make it to a SASS meet, but with the daughter's wedding looming, might have to wait a bit. The River City Regulators in Davis, CA are not too far, but they hold their matches on the first Sunday of every month. I can't make October. The Rough Riders in Richmond, CA have one the 2nd Sunday of even months. Maybe I could make that one, but don't much like going to Richmond.

One the one hand.... I really want a BP revolver... on the other hand, I may be happier if I don't get in a rush. We'll see if careful consideration prevails over instant gratification! Not always so in my case!

Why buy a cap and ball gun and then try to make it into a cartridge gun?

I was under the impression that switching from BP to cartridge is a matter of swapping out the cylinder. I also understood that the conversion cylinders were an important part of the evolution of the revolver. Am I mistaken?

grym

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Here is a photo of my mismatched pair of 1858 Remmies with their conversion cylinders in place. The shiny one is a Stainless Uberti fitted with a blued R&D cylinder. The blue Remmie is an old EuroArms import that I bought back about 1975, long before the current versions of conversion cyliniders existed. I had an R&D cylinder fitted to it a few years ago.



Do try different conversions before you buy.

For me it was a no brainer that to shoot a Cap & Ball pistol with cartridges I wanted cylinders for the Remmies. With a Colt style revolver one must either remove the barrell assembly every time one reloads the cylinder, or else alter the pistol by adding a loading gate and cutting a channel for the loading gate. If the gun is altered, one may or may not be able to shoot it C&B anymore, depending on the type of alterations that were done. One of the selling points of the R&D conversion cylinders specifically for the 1858 Remmie is that the gun does not need to be altered at all to go back and forth between cartridges and C&B. You simply put in the appropriate cylinder. No loading gate needs to be cut because popping the cylinder out of a Remmie is very simple. Lower the loading lever, pull the cylinder pin forward, and pop out the cylinder. The cylinder has a backing plate with 6 separate firing pins. Pull off the plate, dump out the empties, and reload it, pop the cylinder back in the gun, push in the pin and snap the loading lever back in place. This is possible because of the solid frame design of the Remmie. Colt style C&Bs are held together with a wedge running through the cylinder arbor and the barrel assembly. With a Colt style conversion, as I said you either have to cut a loading gate so the cylinder can be loaded from the rear, or pop out the wedge to remove the barrel and cylinder for reloading. Not really a big deal, I just like the Remmie design better. It is also sometimes said that the solid top design of the Remmie is stronger than the open top Colt design, held together by a wedge.

Caliber was also mentioned. It is just plaint dumb luck that the barrel groove diameter of most 44 cal C&B revolvers will accept 45 caliber bullets. Don't ask why they are called 44s, that's another long story. But it is a lucky accident that we can shoot 45 Colts out of 44 cal C&B revolvers. The same is not true with a 36 cal C&B. As was mentioned, one must shoot hollow based bullets in a 36 cal C&B if one wants to go to cartridges because the groove diameter is not correct for 38 Sp. The hollow based bullets expand to fill the rifling. This means finding hollow point bullets and handloading. I don't thing anybody makes them commercially.

There is another player in this game. Kirst also makes conversion cylinders for C&B revolvers. Their design is a bit different, Kirst uses a fixed backing plate to the cylinder wiith just one firing pin. I believe Kirst makes a conversion cylinder for the Remmie that allows the gun to be fired unaltered, but I believe they make another one that requires cutting a loading gate. Not 100% sure or that.

It can certainly be said that conversion cylinders are part of the history of C&B firearms. Until the White patent for bored through revolver chambers expired, I believe around 1870 or so, the only American company that could legally manufacture cartridge revolvers with bored through cartridge cylinders was Smith and Wesson. The time period following the War Between the States saw a brisk trade in converting C&B revolvers to cartridges with conversion cylinders, some done by Colt themself, many cobbled together by independent gunsmiths. But to be fair neither the R&D nor the Kirst is an exact copy of those efforts. Close, but not exact.

It must be mentioned that buying a C&B revolver and adding a conversion cylinder is not a cost effective way to buy a cartridge revolver. After paying for the revolver, and adding the considerable cost for a cylinder, one could easily have bought a cartridge revolver. However, the cartridge revolver is only a cartridge revolver, it cannot be shot as a C&B.

One other selling point for conversion cylinders is that most of them are proofed for Smokeless powder. The R&Ds are. You must never load Smokeless Powder into a Cap & Ball cylinder. But you can load SAAMI spec Smokeless cartridges in an R&D cylinder if you are so inclined.

[Dick Dastardly]

Whut DJ said, all true.

Since I'm more familiar with the Kirst Konverter cylinders and since Walt Kirst aka Sam'l Remington is a personal friend, I'll try to address the strength of the Kirst products without over stretching the truth.  I have a brace of ROAs.  They are very robust pistols.  I have a pair of Kirst Konverter cylinders for them.  There are some books that list "Ruger Only" loads for 45 Colt.  My ROAs with Kirst Konverter cylinders will handle these loads.

Now, I'm not advising any shooter to play with tall pressure loads in black powder guns.  But, if you must do it, the ROA is the strongest of the C&B guns and my experience with the Kirst cylinders would indicate that they are possibly the best choice should you go teasing the dragon.

So what, that's not what we are about.  We want smooth running guns that work without a wrinkle.  The above mentioned equipment will do that, do it well and do it for a very long time.  I'm talkin' value here.

I'll admit preference for my equipment.  That comes from havin' fun with stuff that flat works.

DD-DLoS

P.S.  Since DJ went and posted 'em purty pictures I had to put some up of  my own.

[grymster2007]

I think you've answered all of my questions and some I hadn't thought of, but maybe I'll need to come up with more, just to keep you posting all the photos of the nice revolvers! 

I'm making a valiant effort to refrain from buying my first BP revolver until I actually hold a few in my hands, but I'm already starting to suspect this could turn into something that will test my wife's devotion to me. I'm pretty sure that by early last week I'd already been bitten, but the venom's toxicity seems to increase with time! Once bitten, can one ever recover from this?

Again, great stuff!

Thanks,

grym

[Deadeye Don]

Yep,  Getting involved in CAS or WAS depending on your viewpoint will in fact test just how strong those marriage vows are.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Once bitten, can one ever recover from this?

Nope. You're hosed.

[Dick Dastardly]

Depends on personalities and diplomatic skill, but many wives and sweethearts have come to love shootin' alongside their men.  They enjoy the male attention at matches where men outnumber wimmen by at least 10 to 1 and chivalry ain't dead.  Also, this gives the well married shooter lots more chances to get more guns. . . .

DD-DLoS

P.S.  This hasn't worked on my bride. . . . yet.

[grymster2007]

Yeah... I'm hoping to get the little lady to check out a CAS event with me. If I can get her to go, I'm sure she'll have fun and maybe even want to sign up. Have to see if I can come up with a "cute" alias for her.

I was looking at the .44 Caliber Remington Revolving Carbine and there's something about them I like, but I've read a bit about cross-firing and I am wondering how one keeps their hands out from in front of the cylinder? Or maybe one doesn't?

grym