Where did cowboys buy their bullets??? (dry goods store or "hardware")

[Dakota Widowmaker]

Its my understanding that more often than not, those that needed ammo bought it at the local "dry goods" store.

Is this correct or not?

Also, what was the most often carried or sold ammunition type back then for folks west of the Mississippi? As I understand it, there was also more variety EAST of the river than WEST.

[Buffalow Red]

with all the different cal the dry goods would have to have quiet an enventory

[St. George]

As was talked over in an earlier thread - the Dry Goods and Hardware stores were the most common points of sale.

Without a very thorough examination of wholesale/retail sales from now-defunct sellers and manufacturers - to say nothing of those trade names whose brands have been sold many times over - there is no accurate way to determine a 'favorite'.

Some things apparently didn't warrant notice at that time, since there's been no reference made.

As to locational variety - I doubt it, since the Mail Order business literally covered all points, and if you could get the catalog from Sears, Roebuck & Co., or Montgomery Ward & Co. (prime suppliers to the trade) - you could get what was available.

That would also account for the newer powders.

At the time, there weren't the myriad of magazines available - so what was there was read from cover to cover, and anything that dealt with new firearms or breakthroughs in propellants was reviewed...

Then, as now - that would spark an interest on both fronts - the interested buyer and a motivated seller.

As to inventory - there'd be the common calibers, of course - anything 'special' would have to be ordered or stocked as a courtesy.

They didn't have to have it on hand - they just had to be able to get it in a reasonable time - and that depended on the Mail and on the Railroad.

Perhaps the most common was what was used by the popular 'combinations' of rifle and revolver that was a big sales feature.

That'd mean .44-40, for one - being chambered by Winchester and Colt weapons.

With some Luck, and good sales - the small Dry Goods and Hardware stores would expand over time, and as they did, they'd stock more to be better able to serve their customers.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Dr. Bob]

What would they likely stock for shotguns?  !2, 10, 16 ga's in that order?  Mighty few 16's until after 1900 I would expect.  Sears in 1897 listed mostly 12's with a few 10's thrown in.  They had their own factory in the US.  German and Belgian mfgr's made 12's & 16's IIRC.

[Delmonico]

Shot shells would depend on the time period, 10 and 12 being the most commom, though stadard load in the 10 was 1 1/4 oz and the 12 was       1 oz, paper cases being more common by far.  Till sometime in the late 1880's shot shells were sold as primed empties or loaded with powder and wads,.  Two reasons for this, one, it took till then to develop a loading machine that would crimp on a mass scale and around this time the shot size system from the Tantum Shot Tower in St. Louis was standardized by the ammunition industry.  Before that there was no standard, one places #4 shot might be someone else's #2 or #7.

[St. George]

Again - they'd stock what was most common or must 'usable' - and that would be:

8 gauge - late 1880's -  long-range duck gun - market hunting
10 gauge - late 1880's - market hunting
12 gauge (introduced around 1866) - universal use
16 gauge - (introduced around 1866) - universal use - overshadowed by 12 gauge

There were more - but they're fairly uncommon and even rare, so they'd not likely be seen on a rack somewhere.

Shotguns featured in the 1895/96 Sears, Roebuck & Co. catalog were made by:

Charles Daly
W.W. Greener
Lefever
L.C. Smith
Colt
Baker
Forehand Arms Co.
Torkelson
Ithaca
Parker
Remington
Burgess
Richardson
Prize
Spencer
Forehand and Wadsworth
Pieper
LeFacheaux
Champion
Winchester
Merwin, Hulbert
Meridian

Plus the various makers who built guns for Sears, and applied the 'Sears' Trade name, since they didn't manufacture firearms - they merely marketed them

Crescent and Forehand & Wadsworth and Meridian were but three that supplied the Trade.

Obviously - you had a myriad of choices -both in firearm and in chambering, as well.

Common 'names' associated with Old West shotguns include Remington, Greener, Parker, Winchester and L.C. Smith - largely because of purchases by stage lines, I'd imagine, making them a bit more 'known' than others - but they all had their fans.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Guns Garrett]

   With the recent commemoration of the Dalton Gang's last holdup attempt here in Coffeyville, October 5, 1892, I reviewed some of the details of the events that have a bearing on this thread -

    A curious merchant thought he recognized Grat Dalton entering the Condon Bank, peered through the front window, and saw the robbery in progress.  He spread the alarm, and immediately several citizens headed towards the two hardware stores located on the city Plaza: Isham's Hardware (across the street from the Condon, and a few doors down from the other bank, the First National), and Bosworth's Hardware (down the block, and almost directly in front of, the Condon. There the citizens armed themselves with rifles and shotguns, and had a good supply of ammunition.  City Marshall Connelly was in Read's Department Store (don't know if that would classify as a "dry goods store" or not) across the Plaza and was unarmed.  He left Read's and went to a nearby machine shop and borrowed a rifle.  By the time he emerged from the shop, the robbers were making their getaway, towards an alley where they had left their horses.  Marshall Connelly crossed an empty lot and entered the alley, unfortunately right in front of Grat Dalton, who promptly shot him dead.  Eventually all the gang members were shot down in the alley, though one (Dick Broadwell) did manage to mount his horse and ride away, only to drop dead a half mile west of town.  Emmet Dalton was severely wounded, but survived and later sentenced to life in prison (paroled in 1907). 

   Besides Marshall Connelly, three other citizens lost their lives and four were wounded, one severely.  Upon examining the dead outlaws' weapons after the gunfight, it was found their Winchester rifles were completely out of ammunition, and the outlaws had never fired, or even pulled, their revolvers.  All the outlaws had SA Army Colts, except Emmet Dalton who carried a 1878 Colt Double-Action.  Bob Dalton carried another SA Colt in his boot, and a .38 cal bulldog in his vest pocket.  I was not able to get an accurate count of what types of Winchesters the outlaws carried, but there were at least two '86 Winchesters, and at least one or two brand-new '92 's  It is estimated that no more than 10 weapons were used by the defenders in the gun battle, but I don't have an accurate talley of those, either.  Nearly all of them, and the ammuntion, came from the two hardware stores.  Some were returned to the stores' stock, but a few were given to the defenders as reward.  Many years later some were donated to the Dalton Defenders' Museum here in Coffeyville, along with some of the outlaws' guns, and a few made it to the J.M Davis Gun Museum in Claremore, Oklahoma.  Both museums were victims of break-ins in the past few years, but I believe most items were recovered.

[Boot]

I believe 10 gauge was a much more universal round than stated, also they were in common use before the late 1880s.

Billy the Kid used Bob Ollingers 10 gauge Whitney in 1881 to kill Bob.
Whitney were producing shotguns from 1870-74 in 10, 12 and 16 gauge.

I also think the shotgun used by Black Bart may of been a 10 gauge.

They certainly saw considerable use with Stagecoach guards and Bandits alike and were often prefered to the twelves.

[Books OToole]

...at Zimmerman's; two doors down from Hoover's Whosale Liquors.


Books

[Fox Creek Kid]

...at Zimmerman's; two doors down from Hoover's Whosale(sic) Liquors.

Funny thing, there's a gun store in my city two doors down from a bar as well.

[ColonelFlashman]

Travelling salesman from known Arms Co's., Sporting Goods Stores, or Dealers in & Manufacturers Agents of, travelled the country suppling Dry Goods Stores, Hardware Stores & actual Gun Shops w/ everything needed. Here's a brief list of all three types from 1864-1880.

Merrill Patent Fire Arms Manufacturing Co.,
Peabody Breech-Loading Fire-Arms,
Henery's Patent Repeating Rifle Co.,
New Haven Arms Co.,
Spencer Repeating Rifle Co.,
National Arms Co.,
Folsom Brothers Co.,
Great Western Gun Works,
James Bowen & Son Enterprise Gun Works,
Homer Fisher, Dealer in & Manufacturers Agent of,
Merwin, Hulbert & Co. Sporting Goods.

[Stillwater]

In the part of the West I was born in, southwestern Montana, most of the stores were called "General Stores," because they generally carried everything needed.

Bill

[Ranch 13]

 Keep in mind that due to finances the average "cowboy" probably didn't fire a box of cartridges in 2 years time.
They probably purchased their gun thru a mailorder book, or maybe even direct from the manufacturer, and bought a box of cartridges with the gun.
From there on out they most likely bought the next box from the local General Store or placed another mail order.

[WaddWatsonEllis]

At the suggestion of Delmonico, I am reading Elmer Keith's autobiography.

One of the most interesting things that is in it is the different weapons and the ammunition that they used. We alll think of the West as having four or possibly five types of ammo, and that if one needed something else, well one was just out of luck. Now I am sure that Mr. Keith probably reloaded alot of what he shot, but he mentions shooting everything from .22 rimfire to .400 Whelan.

Than, as he became known as a shooter, the local weapon sales reps would offer specials for him  to try ... raising interest in the neighborhood for their particular line of guns and ammo.

This was in and around Missoula Montana, so I am sure there were no emporiums of ammo within traveling range.

[Grogan]

Funny thing, there's a gun store in my city two doors down from a bar as well.

An even funnier thing...

I once bought a new S&W Mod. 27 at a very old gunstore in San Jose, Cal that was a Gun Shop AND Liquor Store!

It had been that way for years and years.

I'm guessing it's not there anymore?

[Fiddler Green]

An even funnier thing...

I once bought a new S&W Mod. 27 at a very old gunstore in San Jose, Cal that was a Gun Shop AND Liquor Store!

It had been that way for years and years.

I'm guessing it's not there anymore?

Ah, no. There are almost no gun stores left in San Jose. Even Reed's is closed. There was a gun/fishing/liquor store in Watsonville as well. And, let's not forget the "Fin and Skin" outside of Richmond, VA.


Bruce

[Grapevine Jimmy]

In the late 60's and early 70's when I was stationed at Ellsworth AFB, SD we used to go up to Deadwood fairly often. There were several liquior stores on the main street that sold liquior on one side and had large firearm/memorabilia displayed on the other side. There was a hardware store on the other side of the street that had hunting/shooting supplies on the second floor. My "clock" always rolled back about a hundred years when I visited there.


GJ

[Shotgun Franklin]

There were dozens of different types of ammo available in the late 1800s but as was mentioned above, MOST folks, Cowboy or not, only used a box of ammo every few years or so. If you've never done it read a copy of 'Cartridges of the World'. It's easy to see that the selection available was as great as we have now.

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

At the suggestion of Delmonico, I am reading Elmer Keith's autobiography.

One of the most interesting things that is in it is the different weapons and the ammunition that they used. We alll think of the West as having four or possibly five types of ammo, and that if one needed something else, well one was just out of luck. Now I am sure that Mr. Keith probably reloaded alot of what he shot, but he mentions shooting everything from .22 rimfire to .400 Whelan.

Than, as he became known as a shooter, the local weapon sales reps would offer specials for him  to try ... raising interest in the neighborhood for their particular line of guns and ammo.

This was in and around Missoula Montana, so I am sure there were no emporiums of ammo within traveling range.

   I've read Elmer Keith's book " Hell I Was There ", good book and I recommend it to all my gun nut friends, Wad is right, a lot of his stuff was sent to him, and he loaded most of his ammo his self, he didn't mention where he bought any locally, but I'm sure there had to be sources and stores to do that, when I was a kid, I remember general stores that carried food /fresh meat and guns and ammo, that wasn't uncommon at all, all hardware stores carried guns and ammo, and a lot of gas stations did as well, and some still do in certain area's,  guns were looked upon as tools back then, which they are, and ammo went with them, as I remember as a kid most these places were well stocked back then, so that was a good sign that they turned over quit a bit of it, having too much money tied up in inventory that didn't sell just didn't happen, or was very unlikely. I was too young to know what calibers they carried, but I 'm sure they just carried the most used, and any wild cat calibers were either hand made or special ordered. My Granddad was from the late 1800's, and they got there ammo in town, Dry Good stores, the Gun Smith, General stores and Hardware stores, he said they all carried guns and ammo back then.


                                                                   Regards

                                                           tEN wOLVES 

                                                   

[Grogan]

Ah, no. There are almost no gun stores left in San Jose. Even Reed's is closed. There was a gun/fishing/liquor store in Watsonville as well. And, let's not forget the "Fin and Skin" outside of Richmond, VA.

Bruce

That's too bad, because a couple of years later I bought a really nice S&W Mod 48 (K-22 Magnum) from another Gun Shop that was right in the heart of "Downtown" San Jose (I think it might have even been on Main St.?).

I don't remember the name, but they claimed they were the oldest Gun Shop in California (been there since 1862 I think it said)