SASS legal duplex load?

[Dick Dastardly]

I writ this over on the SASS net.  Some good answers, lots of prejudice.  What's yer take?



I'm wondering if anybody has tried duplexing two SASS legal powders. It should be SASS legal and could prove beneficial for 1000 yard distances.

I'm thinking of putting some 777 under the Holy Black for some loads for my Remington Rolling Block 45-70. I'll be loading my DD 45-70 500 grain Mk-II twin lube grove Big Lube™ bullets.

DD-DLoS

[Cuts Crooked]

I'd say that one is probably legal. SASS allows the use of BP or BP substitutes in BP cartridges. What is prohibited is the use of duplex loads utilizing smokeless & BP. (not sure of the actual wording but I'm pretty sure that that is the intent)

[will52100]

Don't know if that would do you any good or not.  I haven't chronoed 777 but from limited experiance with it and a good bit of experiance with Swiss powder I think there about the same.  I know swiss is a lot hotter than normal black powder, it's an express or real sporting black powder.  Burns cleaner too.  I use it exclusivly in my 38 long colts and 45-70.  It'd be worth a try, and one day i'd like to chrono eaual loads in the same type round and see just what if any power differance there is.

[Dick Dastardly]

I shall load some starting around 10% 777 and 90% Holy Black and work up if I see need to.  I'll report back.  The reason for the post is that if somebody has done it I'd like to learn from their experience.  Ideas, mine included, are cheap.  Results are less so. . .

Thanks for answering, keep 'em coming.

DD-DLoS

[Noz]

DD, The old timers used to duplex long range loads but with different powder gradations.
Like  maybe 5 grs of FFFFg under 40 grs of FFg. Just a starter to get things going.

[w44wcf]

DD,
I personally haven't done it yet (on my "to do" list) but a few years ago I corresponded with a fellow who had. He said that it worked well for him and that he could fire many rounds using bullets from the standard Lyman molds  in his .38-40 & .44-40 '73's with no loss of accuracy.

Hope it works well for you.

w44wcf

[Dick Dastardly]

Ok, I'll let the cat out of the bag.  I've been shooting a duplex load that ran 1150 fps with FFg Holy Black.  I put between Five and Seven percent SR4759 under the bp and graph at 1350 fps.  Fouling isn't an issue because I'm running big lube bullets and the fouling blows out anyway.  FWIW, the load above seems to run cleaner but doesn't shoot any more accurately.  Thing is, it gets to 1000 yards without me running out of ladder on my long range soule sight.

So, I've run duplex loads and understand their implications.  I'm just trying to come up with a 1300+ fps load for my 45-70 using a SASS legal load.  So that you may know, the 1150fps loads were compressed Swiss FFg.  The 1350 fps loads are SR4759 under FFg LIDU.

DD-DLoS

[Ol Gabe]

OK, learning curve question:
Why 4759 instead of 3031, please expound, hoping to get smarter.
Best regards and good shooting!
'Ol Gabe

[Delmonico]

Faster burning pard, some also use 4227.  Also the Granuals(sp) are shorter and have less of the black sift in, 3031 is like chunks of mechanical pencil lead.

As far as i know, most who duplex use a medium fast burning single-base powder like 4227 or 4759.

[Dick Dastardly]

The old Lyman book I found the load in called for SR4759.  I had some on hand for reduced loads for takin' small game with my deer rifle.  The stuff works real well at low pressures and I didn't want to vault my pressures in my original Remington Rolling block.  The duplex loads I've shot show no real pressure issues when I mike the web and look at primers.  FWIW, I'm getting my most consistent results with large pistol primers.  Seems a lot of BPCR long range shooters have discovered this.

DD-DLoS

[Grapeshot]

I writ this over on the SASS net.  Some good answers, lots of prejudice.  What's yer take?



I'm wondering if anybody has tried duplexing two SASS legal powders. It should be SASS legal and could prove beneficial for 1000 yard distances.

I'm thinking of putting some 777 under the Holy Black for some loads for my Remington Rolling Block 45-70. I'll be loading my DD 45-70 500 grain Mk-II twin lube grove Big Lube™ bullets.

DD-DLoS

Used to stick 10 grains of 4Fg under a charge of pyrodex to get the Pyro to ignite more consistantly.

My reading bears this out with the practice of some of the old time long range shooters.

[Capt. Augustus]

Us Old Timers used the 10 grains 0f 4f to set off the main charge of Pyrodex in flintlocks, the flash wasn't hot enough.

[Dick Dastardly]

Let's face it, long range black powder cartridge shooting is more an art than a science.  I already use a legal BPCR duplex load with great success for 1000 yard shooting.  Not SASS, but BPCR long range.

What I was trying to learn is whether or not 777 could replace my current SR4759 powder as the "sparkplug".  So, I have to go and put some money on the mahogany for a pound of 777 to learn if my idea works, and if so, how well. . .

I'm not scared of any excess pressure stuff but I will go easy till I learn where the edges are.  Apparently I'm plowing fresh dirt here.

DD-DLoS

[subgunner]

DD

How does your DD-500-Mk II Big Lube bullet mould compare to the Lyman #457658 mould ? Is your bullet good out to 1000 yds ?

[Dick Dastardly]

The big 500 grain 45-70 bullet is a spire point.  I don't think the Lyman profile is.  Results with the DD-45-70 Mk-II have been mixed.  Some shooters are getting fantastic results, others just can't make it fly the way they want to.  I've found that with this bullet I need every bit of case volume I can get.  I no longer resize my 45-70 brass and only thumb seat the bullet.  Duplexing has been beneficial and long range viability has increased as a result.  1000 yards is a fur piece.  There are special considerations to take into account with that discipline.

LEE is really pushing the envelope as far as bullet length is concerned with this design.  The tip of the bullet is just too close to the allignment pin.  I'm doing a rework to a semi spitzer design that should retain the great wind bucking ability and leave enough room in the mold for proper pin clearance.

I've been working with another manufacturer with this and other Big Lube™ designs but that work has so far come to naught.  I intend to continue to work with them and if successful there could one day be a super premium edition of Big Lube™ molds.  Only time will tell.  If this effort does come to fruit there will be some very exciting news.  Please stand by.

DD-DLoS

[w44wcf]

DD,
4759 is much hotter than 777.  I am currently traveling and don't have my resources handy, but, as I recall,  I do not think that even a casefull of 777 will even come close to your required 500 gr bullet velocity.   

w44wcf

[w44wcf]

DD,

Found some .45-70 data with 777, but with a lighter 400 gr. bullet.
http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=1380.0

I think it would be interesting for you to try your idea and let us know what your results were.

I'm guessing that you may pick up an additional 20 to 30 f.p.s. at the most due to the small amount of 777 used.

PLease keep us posted.

Thank you,
w44wcf 

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

DD,  did you ever try out yer duplex 777/bp?  I'm real interested to know the results.  My 45-70 is fouling pretty bad and I'm wondering if a few grains of 777 to kick off the powder would help blow some of it out.  Aside from that, I'm just curious.

Thanks,
JD

[Dick Dastardly]

The results will come sometime this winter.  I have to work up the load first and graph it.  When I find a good velocity with a narrow SD I'll load enough to run them long distance.

I will keep folks posted.  The project does offer promise.

DD-DLoS

[J.D. Yellowhammer]

Thanks, I'll be watchin'.