The "modernization" of the Spencer

[Appalachian Ed]

I know this is not going to be a popular opinion.....

The modern calibers, smokeless loads, and incorrect sights do nothing but take away from the Spencer. All this tinkering and reinventing of this gun makes me think of the inline/plastic stock/modern loads/jackets bullets that invaded traditional muzzleloading in the 90's and today. It all takes away from the shooting of antique/civil war/primitive guns. It will upset some, but if you cant/aren't able to do it the "old" way, then maybe you should shoot something else. It is sad when organizations bend to allow incorrect copies/calibers/loads/powders into competition. If you need to shoot all the modern calibers and loads, shoot in a modern shooting class, but don't cheapen it for those of us who choose to shoot/load/do things the "old" way. All this talk of "this extractor with this new cartridge"...The Armisport is already not an exact correct '65 Spencer, and this stuff just moves it further away, just one BP shooters opinion.


-Appalachian Ed

[Forty Rod]

And where are you going to find .56-50 rim fire ammo...and who's going to pay the price for something they can't reload?

Are you also willing to give up modern steel for, in many cases, wrought iron?  How about the extra cost for authentic American walnut and rust bluing?

Hey, you wanted authentic.  Can't have it both ways.

[Appalachian Ed]

FR,

You can get it as close as possible.

MANY are happy to pay for American Black Walnut and rust bluing. I sure am.  As far as rimfire, it is obviously not an option. There are many things we cannot get the same, but we do not have to go the other route and bastardize these historical guns.

[Mossyrock]

I consider myself a  (an?) "historical shooter".  I don't compete...I shoot historical firearms for MY enjoyment.  This pile of scrap iron includes a custom 50-70 built on an original Remington Rolling Block Sporter action, a Pedersolli Rolling Block in 45-70, a Chaparral 1876 in 45-60, a couple of different Uberti Open Tops and a couple of flintlock rifles based upon original examples.  Oh, and my Shiloh Sharps IS on order.  In my case, I have no desire to shoot anything but BP in most of these.  Sure, I added a Shiloh Sharps rear sight to my Spencer.  That's because the rear sight, as provided by Armi Sport is absolute crap....as was the replacement I got from Taylors.  The rear sight notch was an afterthought that, when deepened even the tiniest amount, cut into the thread channel of the pivot screw.  I hadn't even considered the Sharps sight until I remembered that I had seen one installed on an old heavy-barreled Spencer Sporter at a gun show about a year ago.  In my case, I am not trying to modernize the Spencer.  I am doing what an original frontier gunsmith would have done had he needed a new rear sight: make due with what is available.

[Two Flints]

Easy duz it pards...none of that Spencer barrel whipping around here.  Each to his own opinion...and that's all...it ain't gonna go no farther

[Major 2]

I've owned a couple of Original Spencers, Halls  Burnside and Sharps & C&B Colts and a few others.
I'll limit my opinion to the Spencers.

The moment I added the S&S center fire upper block I modernized my Spencer, still it cost nearly $2.00 a round to shoot.
That would translate to $120 for a 6 stage, one day CAS shoot just for the Spencer.
Spencer's are selling for thousands of dollars , an average 60% gun might bring $ 2500- 3000.
Colts are in the stratosphere as are some Winchester....

The average Joe ( the rank & file of CAS or NCOWS ) could never afford the those prices nor would one want to shoot the fine remaining examples and perhaps effect the value.

[Trailrider]

Howdy, Pards,

I understand the gentleman's wish to be as authentic as possible in his shooting.  The difficulty comes from the fact that the original Spencers range in age from 142-147 years!  The materials used in those guns are destinctly inferior to modern steels.  Not only that, but age and corrosion does have a deliterious affect on everything (including me!).

As was pointed out, rimfire ammo in .56-56 or .56-50 is no longer available, and using the CF conversion breechblocks is the only way to have ammo for an original Spencer.  This alters the past.  With the availability of accurate replicas, those who want to shoot the Spencer in CAS matches or reenactments can do so without worrying about damaging an original (or themselves!).  Tis is no more a "travesty" than shooting a Ruger Vaquero for those who enjoy the shooting part, as the Rugers will hold up many times longer than the Colt's design with a maximum of Mean Time Between Failures (springs, timing, etc.).

There is enough lattitude in attitude for all of us.  Do your own thing, whatever that is!

Ride easy, but stay alert!

[Appalachian Ed]

I think my point is being missed. There is nothing wrong with Reproduction guns. As long as they are true to the orginals. I was commenting on going even further away, by shooting calibers and powder types not even close to the originals. Why not allow colt clones in .22 Long rifle since it is cheaper and recoils less???  Where is the line drawn when continually blurred? As for 2.00 a round to shoot, unless you throw away your brass, how do you figure this cost?? I can shoot 56-50 as cheap as .45 colt once the brass is paid for.


AE

[Major 2]

How do I figure $2.00 a round,  quite easy...

go to http://www.gadcustomcartridges.com/  price 56/56 Spencer (my original ) chambering

$35 per 20 add in shipping = $41.30 for 20 that is $2.06 a shot.... nope I don't reload.

[Two Flints]

Let's "cool it" before it gets outta control..I've seen it start 'easy' on other forums and then become a shooting contest...ain't gonna happen here

[Fox Creek Kid]

Ed, I see your point, but the genie is "out of the bottle". I am like yourself in that I only shoot REAL BP in CAS style firearms. There are many who for whatever reason will buy a Spencer in .44 Russian for reenacting and that makes sense to me from an economic standpoint as I really doubt any onlookers are going to examine the brass to "verify" authenticity. Very few people want to load real BP for a myriad of reasons, including just plain ignorance of the substance. I can't control them. Another large factor is I believe that you (Ed) are a Civil War reenactor which is a whole different kettle of fish than CAS. Your requirements are different. Then again, I guess I could not bathe for months on end, ignore my teeth, never wipe my butt, get a dose of syphilis (late stage) but maybe I'd win an award for "most authentic". I'm not being sarcastic, but rather pointing out that everyone has their own vision of what is for them authentic as well as what they will not do. Me, I'm with you on authenticy yet realizing others will only go so far.

By the way, many 19th century firearms owners switched out their sights for something more visible. The current times have no myopic monopoly. I have no problem with that as long as it is representative of a sight then available. In conclusion, there are in the end only two things that will save OUR hobby: rules stringently enforced and a never ending supply of people who truly appreciate history for what it was and not for what it "should" have been.

[Appalachian Ed]

I am not a reenactor. I compete CAS, Black Powder Cartridge, Round Ball,  and NSSA.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Black Powder Cartridge

Do you use a Soule sight?

[Arizona Trooper]

I'll throw a log on this fire, but just in the spirit of adding another opinion.

I like the way N-SSA runs their events. (I'm an N-SSA vet, but not active at the moment, because the nearest range is 200+ miles away.) They only allow documented period correct equipment, delivered before April, 1865. Henrys, Spencers, Ballards and so on, are allowed to be converted from rimfire, but you can't shoot models that didn't exist in 1865.

The majority of changes allowed in N-SSA are for safety or simply to make it possible to shoot the old guns. For instance, Henrys are chambered in 44-40 or 45LC. When Val Forgett was working on the first ones, I put in an impassioned pitch for 44 Special, since that round is actually a lot closer to the original 44 Henry. Val had a good point though, sure as he made them that way, some idiot would load a magazine full of high pressure pistol rounds with round nose bullets and Val would have taken up residence in a court room.         

There are plenty of gamers who are willing to push the rules to the max in N-SSA, just as in western shooting. If that's what they enjoy, more power to them. But, N-SSA rules don't let them push quite as far.

Personally, I'm in it for the first person historical experience. Most of the guns I've shot in competition have been rehabilitated originals. When I started, that was actually cheaper than buying a top quality reproduction. My few medals were earned shooting equipment as close as I could get to what the "Boys of '61" had to deal with. Unfortunately, even rough originals are now getting so expensive that they are not an option for most of today's shooters.

When I shoot old west arms, I'm looking for a historical experience too. Shooting guns that didn't exist in 1880, with cartridges that didn't exist, using powders that didn't exist, doesn't do much for me. At my first (unofficial) cowboy shoot, I brought a couple Uberti SAAs loaded with 35 grains of black powder over 255 grain bullets, essentially the government load. My lever rifle was a New Model Spencer carbine and I borrowed a shotgun (loaded with black powder paper rounds). It was too much fun, even if I didn't post impressive times. The guys that put on the event thought it was quaint that someone would actually shoot the guns and loads that were in use in 1880s Arizona (which is where we were shooting). They informed me that my outfit would never pass muster at a sanctioned event though.

Since then, my outfit has become a mismatched pair of Whitney and Remington Navys, a Whitney Kennedy in 44-40 (or the same New Model Spencer carbine) and I still borrow a shotgun, since Spencer shotguns aren't allowed. Is it competitive? Heck No! Is it authentic? Quite! Is it fun to shoot? Absolutely!    

There's plenty of room for both the gamers and the historians. As a historian, don't get upset when a gamer out shoots you, after all, their equipment has 120 years of development on you. They may post a higher score, but you will know exactly what it was like to handle the outfit that the guys of 1880 used. It's kind of like running an original Shelby 260 AC Cobra against a modern 427 Cobra kit car. The kit car has all the modern goodies, but the 260 is what Carrol Shelby (and lots of others) raced, and that's the whole point of the experience as far as I'm concerned.

[panhead pete]

Howdy all,

I shoot an Armi-Sport Spencer replica in 56-50.  Black powder only of course!!  I first saw them at  the Greenfield Village Civil War encampment here in Michigan.  They shoot 44  because of the need to shoot blank ammo.  A year later I decided to purchase and the price for an original went from around $1800-$2000 up to $2500-$3000.  So I decided to get the replica.  What a sweet shooting rifle.  Do you know how many people have suggested I modify the gun to HOLD 10 ROUNDS??  Extend the butt-stock they say, do this or do that!?  Some folks just don't understand!!  There are two of us I know of in Michigan shooting the Spencers in main match CAS stages.  The fact that you have only 7 rounds, have to reload on the clock AND cock the hammer each time make it a fairly historic carbine to shoot.  To me that is the essence of the Spencer.  Every time I shoot it though I get positive comments from others.  I believe the Spencers were far more prevailant in the Old West.  That is the experience I am looking for.  Historical accuracy is important enough to me that I have started making my own clothes.  I AM using a modern machine as I have a Wife, a job, and other interests.  So as someone said earlier there is room for all of us.  Being true has its own rewards that others will easily recognize but few will embrace.   

People have also asked me if I am going to put disc brakes and power steering on my 57 Chevy pickup!!  Whaddya think.................

Panhead Pete 

[James Hunt]

PHP: I've been meaning to talk with you about getting rid of that old oil leaking, devil to start, antique two cylinder HD engine in that rigid frame and slip in one of them fast running Honda ...., Oh excuse me, wrong board.

[Mick Archer]

    Howdy Pards!

    RE the N-SSA: 

   "They only allow documented period correct equipment, delivered before April, 1865..."

    Not to start another war, but, yes, that is true in larger but not total part.  As a 17 year member of the N-SSA, more is paid to the overall, outer appearance of things, than what is actually "period correct."  But I would agree if we said "period correct" and not "Period Correct."

   Regardiing Spencer carbine "April" of 1865 sneaks in yes.  The  first M1865 carbines were shipped to the Ordnance Department on April 3, 1865 as 327 in a batch of 1,007 M1860's.  The second batch was sent to the Ordnance Department on April 12th as  132 out of 1,000 M1860's.  The third shipment, of April 25th, was all M1865's.
  Yeah, it's splitting hairs, but no M1865 was actually in the hands of a Civil War soldier prior to the "end" of the War.    

  Or splitting hairs, the Rogers & Spencer revolver, of the 5,000 contracted for in November 1864, with the first being shipped to the Ordnance Department in January of 1865 and las tin September 1865.  With none being issued, and all 5,000 being put into storage in New York City and sold at auction in 1901.

   Of the Italian reproduciton M1853 Enfield is the 4th Pattern, a model that was not used in the American Civil War, went into storage, and was used for the Snyder breech-loader conversions..

   Just a-funnin', just a-funnin'...

   Seriously though, the N-SSA allows many non "period correct" options some lads take, some do not.  For example, although my custom-built M1855 Rifle-musket was an exact copy, I shot 36 grains of FFF behind a modern 315 semi-wad cutter bullet for ultimate accuracy.  And on some of my other guns, instead of the broad three groove Civil War rifliing and period twist rate, I had deep 6, 7, and 8 micro-groove rifled bores with faster twists. 
   And in my unit, peep sight aperatures were added to regular leaf sights, or replaced them, as well as front sights and even muzzles being painted day-glow orange.  While some lads shot with adjustable lens aperature devices attached to their shooting glasses.  Many barrels  were "Accraglassed" (epoxy) to the stock

  At any rate, I am not arguing any point, just saying that the timed "competitive shooting" sport of N-SSA "Skirmishing" does allow for deviation from strictly "documented period correct equipment."

   Others' mileage, and Mental Pictures, will rightfully vary...

   Mick Archer
   Heretic
   

[Rancid Roy]

Applachian Ed,

I ride both sides of the trail, due to neccessity and accessibility.

I do agree that black powder hunting seasons have been "bastardized" by the inclusion of inline muzzleloaders and scopes. The purpose of the seasons were intended to provide a bit of an advantage for those who chose "primitive weapons" and some of them were even labeled as such. And yes scopes existed in the 1840s and 1850s but they were not the modern type. Primitive or Black Powder seasons should be reserved for the correct weapons....and ammuntion of the time period. In my singular opinion, anything in use before 1865. I.e. no "Maxi-Balls", no "Sabots", no Inlines, no scopes. Roundball and minie ball only.

As it comes to reproduction cartridge weapons we have to accept that the manufacturers will take shortcuts for production, and profit. So a Spencer reproduction of a price within the grasp of the general public is not going to be built like an original. And to appeal to a broader base of buyers it is going to have to be in a caliber that is easily accessible. Therefore the attempts at .44 Russian and .45 Schofield. And of course to appeal to an even broader base these calibers were chosen for reasons of Cowboy Action Shooting. Then the owners of Taylors realized that the owners of CAS [SASS] could be reasonable so the 56-50 was made a legal caliber.

I do also believe that in the sport of actual Civil War shooting or re-enacting that maybe more strict authenticity probably should be observed. Hence black powder only loads and most of what you suggest. Perhaps in the shooting events there could be two categories, blackpowder/authentic and then smokless/less authentic.

I shoot black powder only [no substitutes] in any weapon I shoot black powder in. That is a Shiloh 1874 Sharps, a Mississippi Rifle, a Lyman Plains rifle [patched roundball], all my cap-n-ball pistols, my pistol cartridge conversions, and a hammered 12 gauge double.

When I hunt with that Plains Rifle my accourtements are all "original" in intent. I use a loading block and a home-made wooden loading measure. All attached to my possibles bag and powderhorn.

But in my Spencer XMP5744 delivered better accuracy than black powder so I shoot that powder.

The Spencer was also produced in a caliber called 56/46 or 46/56?? Which I think was a necked down 56 case to an almost/close-to .45 bullet. Some very neat sporters were made in these calibers. I am hoping to some day buy a Taylor's Spencer rifle in .44/40 or the newer .45 Long Colt [I prefer the .44/40] and then I will have that rifle remade into a period correct sporter, except the caliber.

I applaud those who pursue "purism" in their historical hobbies because it allows the rest of society to see how it was actually done. But I am afraid of the desires to pursue "excludism" to the point that only a few care to participate in a sport. Eventually that sport will die.

[Harve Curry]

I was thinking about that 56-46 cartridge. 
CARTRIDGES OF THE WORLD says this about it:
Introduced by Spencer in 1866 for his small repeating carbine and sporting rifle.
330gr bullet of .465" dia., 1210fps , case length 1.156" , and OAL ctrg. 1.632" .
Also known as #46, .46/100 .
320gr to 330 gr bullets , 45gr black powder, loaded untill 1919.

[Trailrider]

I was thinking about that 56-46 cartridge. 
CARTRIDGES OF THE WORLD says this about it:
Introduced by Spencer in 1866 for his small repeating carbine and sporting rifle.
330gr bullet of .465" dia., 1210fps , case length 1.156" , and OAL ctrg. 1.632" .
Also known as #46, .46/100 .
320gr to 330 gr bullets , 45gr black powder, loaded untill 1919.

To throw some more kerosene on the fire...  How about reaming the chamber of a .45 Schofield Taylor's and necking down .56-50 brass to handle a 300 gr .45 slug?  Not sure what would be gained, but...it would give a handloader something else to play with...just incase you got bored!