NCOWS legal 'buffalo guns ?'

Marshal Deadwood · August 19, 2007, 10:29:52 AM

Is the '85 hi wall accepted by NCOWS in their black powder cartridge 'buffalo' shoots ? Are there any bp cartridge catagories were it is not legal ?

I know,,,its not main match gun,,,,

Marshal Deadwood

Yuma Kid · August 19, 2007, 11:10:08 AM

Marshal,
A lot of the "Buffalo" shoots restrict the rifle to earlier guns, I think the main period was over by 1885. It would sure be a legal long range rifle, black powder or smokless. I guess it just depends on the local rules of the club putting on the "Buffalo" Shoot.
Yuma

Lone Gunman · August 19, 2007, 11:37:13 AM

The original "Great Buffalo Hunt" as held for many years in conjunction with the NCOWS National Shoot at Ackley Iowa was limited to those rifles used to kill buffalo during the peak hunting years of 1872-1882 and was restricted to black powder only (or subs). This would include Sharps, Remington Rolling Blocks, Trapdoors, Ballards etc. but would obviously not include the 1885 Hi-Wall. I don't know if those rules are still adhered to at the Ackley range for the buffalo hunts, but I'm almost certain Hi-Walls are allowed for the medium and long range shoots there. Ol' Gabe or Kayleen will likely be posting that answer. Some clubs have more restrictive rules for their buffalo shoots than others. To be on the safe-side the older designs are never disallowed.

It might be worth noting here that the H&R or New England Firearms "Handi-Rifle" is specifically not approved for NCOWS use because it did not exist during our time period.

Kayleen · August 20, 2007, 08:03:55 AM

I think this is going to depend on the director of the shoot. The past years we have had some really interesting guns at the buffalo hunt here at Ackley. Now they have all been of our vintage. There is now a scope class, using period correct scopes. There has even been a couple times when smokless powder was allowed.
After spending time with many of the folks that shoot here, you get a collection of information and that often time determines what sort of gun you want.
I don't see why the High wall wouldn't be ok. Call Jay Weber, he has lots of experience and his number is in the Shootist.
Kayleen

Delmonico · August 20, 2007, 08:23:07 AM

I based my comment in BROW on a discussion a couple years ago on TFS about this, since there is nothing in the Tally book on it. At that time, in that thread as I remember the Ballard, the Trapdoor, the Side hammer Sharps and the Remington Rolling Block were discussed as the most likely ones used in buffalo hunting and the 1885 was dissmissed as too late as it would be if you drew a propper PC fine line. That is also what I have been telling folks who have asked me about this at work.

Now I could care less either way if the fine 1885 is included or excluded but perhaps it's time that those who are most active in this get some guidelines down before this turns into another "mess" like several other things have turned into from lack of being "properly" addressed till there was a mess that hurt folks feelings.

If and when this is figured out, someone please post this information in BROW and I'll put a stickey on it. If they local matches are truely based on what the local director wants to do, then please post the information as that.

Silver Creek Slim · August 20, 2007, 09:27:03 AM

My 1895 Marlin wouldn't be legal fer "buffalo shoots". It shot is at the GAF Muster with 500 grainers. Being such a light rifle that crescent butt pad didn't feel very good after a few rounds.

Slim

Ol Gabe · August 20, 2007, 03:42:32 PM

Just for the sake of discussion only...
The following is from the CVR website and has been edited for space:
RIFLE TIPS & SUGGESTIONS FOR BUFFALO AND BIG BORE SHOOTS
Disclaimer: We do not advocate one brand or brands of rifle, powder, bullets, wads, primers, brass etc.
Rifles: most are falling blocks in 45/70,45/90, Set triggers 30 to 32 inch barrels
Bullets: 500 gr. 535 gr. Postel being most predominate
Powder: Swiss 1 ½ and Goex Cartridge or FF (all powders compressed)
Sights Front: Globe with level (most are MVA)
Sights Rear: Soule with Hadley Cup (most are MVA)
Note: 400 – 450 bullets don't seem to be heavy enough to knock over large buffalo at longer ranges.
No matter the size, weight or speed of your bullet, you still need a center shot or above to knock over buffalo.
ALWAYS DRESS PRE 1899 FOR CVR / NCOWS SHOOTS
...
In addition, the Minutes of the past Congress meeting indicate a "passed" on the 'Long Range' proposal, specifically covering what you are looking for:
7. Different types of Long Range Shooting events may dictate that approved firearms, ammunition, equipment and shooting positions may or may not be used at the Match Director's discretion. Shoot rules and requirements should be clearly communicated to all participants well before the shooting event date, but it remains the shooter's responsibility to find out what is allowed for each event.
Long Range Shoot Committee:
Jay and Karen Weber
Steve Coop (chair)
Robert Chenault
...
Please refer to the CVR website for additional information on each event, many now have a Scope class and all the events are pro-active for all Shooters, the info can be found here: www.cedarvalleyregulators.org
Contacts for specific events are listed on the website. As their schedule is expanding every year, more events have recently been added such as NRA-style Silhouette, 200-1,000 yard Mid & Long Range, 4 Buffalo Herds, etc., all to please the Big Bore Shooters.
Big Bore Shoots generally list all rifles accepted for any specific event and the various class in the registration form along with contact info for the Match Director.
So, in essence, if all your local Shooters only have Hi-Walls or Lo-Walls or original-style Lever Actions in 45-70 or somesuch in a large calibre, tailor-make an event to fit the need. If there is a broad-base of styles ranging in the NCOWS timeframe, utilize them all under the heading as listed in item #7 with the M.D. as the deciding factor, using that as a stairstep to a specialized Big Bore event in your future.
Best regards and good shooting!
'Ol Gabe
NCOWS #925

Delmonico · August 20, 2007, 04:56:31 PM

Thanks Gabe.

Nolan Sackett · August 20, 2007, 08:11:49 PM

Note: The M1885 Winchester is a copy of the Browning Brothers single shot first produced in 1879 - records show that approximately 600 of the Brownings were made between 1879-1884. Winchester bought the plans for the singel shot from the Brownings in late 1884 - it was the beginning of a long and successful relationship.

Marshal Deadwood · August 20, 2007, 09:45:51 PM

Thank you Nolan...good to know.

Marshal Deadwood

Trap · August 21, 2007, 09:20:25 AM

Nolan, I tried that same argument back in 2000, Didn't fly then so I sold my Browning High Wall and bought a Sharps. jt

Deadeye Don · August 21, 2007, 10:19:12 AM

You cant go wrong with a Sharps.

Delmonico · August 21, 2007, 11:30:13 AM

Just my take on it and this might be splitting hairs a bit, although maybe 600 were built, few made it out of the Salt Lake City area. Now never get me wrong the 1879 Browning/1885 Winchester is one of the finest single-shot rifles ever made, I just have a hard time calling it a buffalo gun in the truest sense.

gw · August 22, 2007, 10:21:12 AM

The Hi Wall was the exact reason that guideline #7 was made part of the Long Range Shoot Guidelines. This gives the match director control over what type rifles are used in an event. This same scenario would work in a historical re-enactment where firearms of a later date would need to be excluded because it would be historically incorrect if used. I am also sure that the buffalo shoots by CVR required the use of historically correct cleaning rods and rifle rests/sticks. There's nothing discriminitory or exclusionary about all this, it's simply a matter of using the proper firearms and equiptment for a given period.

James Hunt · August 22, 2007, 06:35:29 PM

Quote from: gw on August 22, 2007, 10:21:12 AM
.... There's nothing discriminitory or exclusionary about all this, it's simply a matter of using the proper firearms and equiptment for a given period.

Brilliantly succinct, a sentence that could be adapted and ascribed to about anything in NCOWS. Another nice piece of prose from you GW.

Dr. Bob · August 23, 2007, 12:47:45 AM

Awwww James,

Yer gonna give hin a BIG head!

gw · August 23, 2007, 05:40:01 AM

Thanks James, but if I was so brilliant, I wouldn't have mispelled equipment! As for a "big head" Doc, I can't hardly afford a new hat (and where could I possibly find another like mine) so that won't be a problem!

Marshal Deadwood · August 23, 2007, 09:14:39 AM

Are there NCOWS long range matches other than the 'buffalo matches' that allow hi walls ?

Marshal Deadwood

Books OToole · August 23, 2007, 09:24:24 AM

Quote from: Marshal Deadwood on August 23, 2007, 09:14:39 AM
Are there NCOWS long range matches other than the 'buffalo matches' that allow hi walls ?
Marshal Deadwood

Yersireee!

Books

Fox Creek Kid · August 23, 2007, 10:05:31 AM

QuoteI am also sure that the buffalo shoots by CVR required the use of historically correct cleaning rods and rifle rests/sticks.

Wrong. Many use Delrin rods and "high tech" wooden cross sticks held together with modern fasteners, e.g., wing nuts.

Folks, have we not learned that if the rules do not spell out EXACTLY what is allowed and what is disallowed AND that they be ENFORCED that the "gamer' virus will be endemic?