There's a reason why the 45 Colt was not offered in rifles. .

[Delmonico]

I maybe should have sized it larger, if anyone wants me to hollor and I'll redo it when I get home.

Meanwhile I am heading to to lobby for some Raisinette's and maybe some Black Crow's, anyone want anything?

[Cuts Crooked]

Sorry, no popcorn right now, I'm at work doing about 14 hours of OT. I'll see Iffin I cain't confiscate sum beer though!

[Delmonico]

Sorry, no popcorn right now, I'm at work doing about 14 hours of OT. I'll see Iffin I cain't confiscate sum beer though!

Cuts you should know better, a few beers could cause this thread to go ugly on us.   That's mean also, you know how hard it is for those kids to get someone to buy beer for them anymore?    Heck folks know if you catch the kids you'll beat them with a rubber hose till they tell who bought it for them and then they'll get busted also.

Be safe out there pard, want you to go home after yer shift is over.

[Wills Point Pete]

 I knew about the Winchester revolvers and the deal with Colt, I believe it wasn't about the Lightning rifles and carbines but that Colt Burgess levergun. Even back then nobody was too afraid of the Lightning, they didn't work any better than the early Taurus rifles.

What I DIDN'T know was that those revolvers had swingout cylinders. That would have put Colt out of business. I mean I love my SAAs for CAS and even woodsbumming but if the hair on the back of my neck starts to rise up I still grab for that DA .357 and a couple of speedloaders. Oh, and depending on the range a shotgun or a rifle. Somehow I never could shoot a semiauto handgun, too many years learning the DA trigger stroke I think.

Fortunately the hair doesn't start curling much anymore, living in the country.

[Doctor Bill]

Well, I'll throw in my two cents.  My 92' replica (EMF) has run just fine for years on a 250-grain PRS bullet over ~2.0 CC of ffg powder.  It always makes it through an entire five stages without a problem and is accurate enough so that any problems with hitting the target are "operator error".  The only work I have done was to just smooth the action out a little bit when I first purchased it.  I may have gotten lucky but I'm not going to part with it any time soon.

Doctor Bill

[w44wcf]

Interesting discussion!  Delmonico, thank you for the information.

I would also add that Winchester only chambered their '73 for cartridges of their own design ,  thus their W.C.F. designation for the .32, .38 & .44. 

What would the ballistics have been for a rifle shooting the early b.p. .45 Colt cartridge?
That was a question that I had several years ago, and to find out, I purchased 10 U.M.C. headstamped (circa 1886-1911) .45 Colt black powder cartridges from a cartridge collector.

A U.M.C. catalog of that era indicated that they offered  3 different b.p. loadings with a 250 gr. bullet for the .45 Colt.......28 grs.; 35 grs.; & 40 grs.  The cartridges I had purchased contained the 40 gr. charge as the cartridges I dissected indicated.

The test rifle was my Marlin '94 Cowboy Ltd. (24" barrel) which I had purchased in 1997. At 10 feet from the muzzle, these cartridges averaged 1,241 f.p.s.  

.44 W.C.F. ballistics according to Winchester's 1899 catalog, were 1,245 f.p.s. with a 200 gr. bullet. 

I was somewhat surprised that these U.M.C. .45 Colt b.p. cartridges were pushing a heavier 250 gr. bullet at the same velocity.

Cartridge history sure is interesting.

w44wcf

[Wills Point Pete]

w44wcf, While the .45WCF had about the same amount of powder and a lighter bullet the .45's bullet had more base area for the powder gases to push on. So, the velocities were close.
I will say it again, we do a disservice by nattering on about the awful blowback in the .45 Colt. Load it to that old Cavalry Load of 28 grains FFFG ahint a 230 grain bullet, or hotter and blowback shold not be a problem, if it is your chamber(s) are (is) probably oversized.
Now when I chose the rifle in .45 I figured I had plenty of handloading experience and could beat the blowback monster. So I did a lot of work on my cartridge cases, only to find that it wasn't needed. I just set my powder charge to 30+ grains and I'm in business.
So, who do I send the bill for that extra work to?
And how many people believed that and are shooting one cartridge in their handguns and another in their rifle?

[sundance44`s]

Lots of room for trial and error in a bullet that will shoot anything from a 160 gr bullet up too a 300 gr or so .
It`s so close to the 44/40 in knock down power ..I just can`t complain ...and don`t understand the bad rap its gotten .Looks cowboy to me .

[Cuts Crooked]

Another thing that has me curious: I wonder how many 45 lever gunz are being used out there? Perhaps DD could give us an idea by letting us know where the .45 big lubes stand in the orders of Big Lube molds he sells. (no numbers jist a rough outline please??)

It does seem like the posts around the web concerning the .45 in lever guns surfaces an awful lot.

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Cuts,

The PRS and J/P 45 cal molds run neck and neck.  I'm buying another 25 of each soon.  They are popular.  I don't know if the bullets are going in rifles or pistols because I don't keep that data.

This I can tell you though.  I get more questions about blowback problems with the 45 Colt chambering in rifles than all the others combined.  Most won't admit it, but they seem to never slug their bores.  Also, they don't mike spent brass to see how much it is expanding beyond factory size.  Further, I think a lot of 45 Colt rifle shooters are trying to run reduced loads.  All the above items are caution areas for blowback problems.  If they are all combined at once, blowback is guaranteed.

Were I to shoot a SASS match rifle in 45 Colt chambering I'd send it to Nate Jones and have it reworked to shoot AJs Cowboy 45 Special brass loaded with EPP-UG bullets.

The next most worrysome caliber for blowback is the 44 magnum.  With full house loads, it's fine.  When loads are reduced is when it starts to get black stuff in the gun.  That one is easy to solve by using 44 Spl brass.  Then, it's a question of getting it to feed right and that's been done by gunsmiths and works out good.  I solve the problem by not using light loads in my Browning 92 44 Magnums.

So, I think the 45 Colt getting crud in the works can be solved by some common knowledge.  Maybe I should print up a suggested list of stuff to do and send it along with each 45 Colt mold I sell. . .  Anyway, I'm going to make a Big Lube™ Bulletin newsletter article out of it.

DD-DLoS

[Buffalow Red]

I JUST TRADED MY 45LC TARAS LIGHTING (BLOW BACK QUEEN WITH BULDGED BRASS) RIFLE FOR A MARLIN 44REM MAG HAVE ONLY SHOT 10 ROUNDS SO FAR 27GR PYRODEX, LUBE WAD &180 GR LEAD VERRY LITTLE BLOW BACK ALMOST NONE.
NOW TO SAVE UP FOR A DUTTCH MAN MOLD FROM DD

[Cohagen]

The Fire is nice and warm, what with all this rain,

I have found that blowback in a 45 rifle can almost be eliminated by using a heavier crimp than normal.  works for me.

Your milage may vary,

Thats my story and i'm stickin to it.

Cohagen

[Texas John Critter]

I am the proud and excited new owner of a 73 in .45.  I will be shooting it for the first time at our state championship Labor Day weekend.  I loaded 200, 250 and 230 gr bullets over 777 to try.  Full loads should seal the chamber but I have not shot it yet so time will tell.  I used to shoot a Navy Arms 92 with light .45 loads and it made a mess of the action.  Switched to full house loads and problem almost went completely away.  When I order a mould from Dick I will slug the bore to make sure I size correctly.  Right now I'm just shooting up what I have on the shelves.

[Cuts Crooked]

Maybe I should print up a suggested list of stuff to do and send it along with each 45 Colt mold I sell. . .  Anyway, I'm going to make a Big Lube™ Bulletin newsletter article out of it.

DD-DLoS

DD, sounds like a good idea. You are invited to glean from anything I've conbtributed to the threads here and in the Dark Arts room. Fact is, I'd be right proud iffin ya did! 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy DD

I don't think there is any mystery to keeping blowback out of the action of a rifle with 45 Colt.

Anything that will maximize the pressure in order to seal the case better in the chamber will help.

Some of the techniques I have read about over the years are:

Heavy bullet coupled with heavy powder charge and heavy crimp.

Only neck size the brass to keep the base of the case at the expanded size.

Anneal the case mouths to make them softer and more easily expanded.

Any or all of these items should help with keeping fouling out of the action of a 45 Colt rifle.

[Major 2]

I'm perhaps a bit slow to understand .... probably because don't reload. 

I have two Henry's in 45 Colt they both get either Goex Black Dawg 235 gr.  or Black Hills 250 gr. ( I don't reload) but I have a friend (Wewahootee) who does.
He uses Clean Shot in my old brass and 250gr. and I have had some with 200 Gr. bullets.
I'm not seeing blow-back in either Henry ( Brass Mil. and a Steel frame )
The only issue I have is in my R&D Cyl. Colt 2nd Gen. (some of the reloads were a tad to long) so I opped for 45 Sch. -180's , as it's matched with my OT.
Again I'm not seeing more than 1/8" black smudge around the case neck.

Now that's different on my 44 Spec. CWC revolver... it does blacken the case about 1/3 to 1/2 way back with factory Hornady hollow points... I have some 44 Ultra max Cowboy loads I'll try in it .. just to see if there is a difference.

[Pitspitr]

TJC
I just got an Uberti '73 in .45 too! I was out of my reloads and the store where I got the gun was out of 250 gr loads, so I bought some 200's they blacken about half the case.

[yul b. nekst]

I just replied on my post regarding my 94 jamming, and I realized that I had far more problems when using Unique than I do now with full load Goex. Even my brass was dirtier. There'd be this long V shaped spot of blowback on one side of each shell, and this was with 8.5 gr of Unique! My handguns jammed quicker, too. Jamming in a sense of crotchety cylinder rotation. With full load BP and magnum primers (another can of worms, I know!) I get a cleaner shooting gun with less clean up time than smokeyless. Also, like I mentioned on my other post, my screws always came loose when I used smokeyless. They don't come loose now with BP. It's got to be the different types of concussion between smokeyless and BP.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

(edited ... )  my screws always came loose when I used smokeyless. They don't come loose now with BP. It's got to be the different types of concussion between smokeyless and BP.

It's REALLY 'cause BP is much nicer to yer guns! 

[w44wcf]

DD,

Good idea! In addition to the excellent advice from the pards, I would add that larger diameter bullets decrease the "windage" ( space around the case in the chamber) and also help seal better.  I would suggest .454" diameter bullets over .452". I am partial to .456"/.457" myself.

Wills Point Pete,

While the .44 WCF had about the same amount of powder and a lighter bullet the .45's bullet had more base area for the powder gases to push on. So, the velocities were close.

Yes, but typically, velocity would be more reduced in a larger bore (bigger expansion ratio) with powder from the same lot.  I have clocked 40 grs. of Goex FFG in the same gun (1894C .45 Colt) and it ran 101 f.p.s. less (1,140 f.p.s.). The same 40 gr. charge of Goex from the same can in my '73 .44 W.C.F. clocked 1,235 f.p.s.   Whatever type of black powder UMC used in those early .45 Colt cartridges was powerful stuff! 

Regarding the blowby with smokeless, I noticed that right off when I purchased my first .45 Colt Ruger Blackhawk back in '72.  Shortly thereafter I bought a set of Lyman Carbide dies and found that because the decapping pin could be adjusted out a fair amount,  I could neck size the brass and decap all in one stroke. I also went to .454" diameter bullets. 

The combination of a larger bullet and neck sized brass corked things up pretty well. 

Long live the .45 Colt!
w44wcf