There's a reason why the 45 Colt was not offered in rifles. .

[Delmonico]

I'm going to add this as just a thought.  If Winchester would have wanted to add it they as one of the larger ammo makers in the country could have "modernized" it with a bigger rim and the others would have followed suit most likely to make their ammo work in a Winchester.  There was a lot of cooperation among most of the US ammo makers at the time, to the point the major players controlled the margets and price, illeagal today of course, but it is a well known fact it did go on.

So could it be that Winchester did not think it would do much more than the 44-40 or was it the "not designed here" syndrome?  Many rounds owe their existance to this. 

Just a thought.

[will52100]

More likely winchester already had the 44-40 going strong and with the right load there's not that much differance performance wise.

I've got a Henry in 45 colt and wouldn't trade it for anything other than maybe a Henry chambered in 44 colt.

I've played around with just neck sizing, anealing, dancing nakid under a full moon.  Nothing seemed to make any real big differance.  I get a very little bit of blowby, not enough to knock a piece of tolit paper off the ejection port though.  I probably get more fouling in the action from cycling the action than from firing, just smoke traped in the barrel.

My load is 38 grains of 3f by wieght, a .030 fiber card and PRS 250 grain bullet.  Works good on steel or deer, and is accurate out to 200 meters.

[Cuts Crooked]

Hmmm?

Let's see here....Colt has chambered the SAA in 32-20, 38-40, 44-40, etc, IE Winchester chamberings......However I cannot think of any instance of Winchester chambering for any of the old Colt propietary cartridges. Perhaps Colt was just capitalizing on the successes of Winchester but Winchester's hubris prevented them from doing much the same

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

I read somewhere that Colt DID make a 45LC rifle. It was a medium or large frame Lightning, late in the period of MFG.

[Delmonico]

Hmmm?

Let's see here....Colt has chambered the SAA in 32-20, 38-40, 44-40, etc, IE Winchester chamberings......However I cannot think of any instance of Winchester chambering for any of the old Colt propietary cartridges. Perhaps Colt was just capitalizing on the successes of Winchester but Winchester's hubris prevented them from doing much the same

Except for the 38-55 and 32-40 which they pretended they invented by calling it the 38-55 Wnchester and the 32-40 Winchester, plus the 22 Long in the rare 73's which could not be ignored, I think the only "not invented here" rounds they used were to 30-40 and in the 95 till after 1900, they might have chambered the 303 Brit and the Ruskie in it before 1900, but am away from sources right now.

They of course did offer others in the 1885 but charged I think $5 extra for those that wern't one of "their" rounds.

Cuts ol' pard can you pop some more popcorn and refill my soda.

[Dick Dastardly]

Yehaaa, this thread has legs.

Ok, in times of old there was some propitiatory jealousy, but did that prevent rifles being made in 45 Colt chambering?  I'm thinkn' not, for all the reasons given and of course some NIH factor.  There were already a good selection of sporting rifles in chamberings that took the game beyond what the 45 Colt could do.  ie. . . 45-70 etc.

Regardless, when we shoot steel our mission is one.  Kill the steel.  I'd like to learn, and hand off to others, what needs to be done to make 45 Colt lever rifles work competitively in a SASS main match environment.

I think that I have something to offer bp shooters in the way of Big Lube™ bullet molds, but the game is bigger than just that.

Thanks again,

DD-DLoS

[Delmonico]

Dick, that syndrome ain't even dead today, look at the mess with the Remmingchester guys and them fat short magnums with no belt, did both need to make their own versions?  Even with the long Remmys, do any of them do anything the Weatherby rounds don't do except say Remington on them.  Don't know if it is the only reason, but could be some of it.

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Delmonico,

I like the 375 H&H myself.  Lots of stuff been done with that cartridge.  Remchester don't make no claim to it either.  I also like the 6.5 Gibbs.  My deer gun is a .257 Durham Jet.

Brand loyalty ain't my problem.

DD-DLoS

[Delmonico]

They would like you to buy the one they have their name on though, same with that new one from Ruger.

I'd take any of the three.

Course I can think of a list of maybe 4-5 center fire rifle rounds that would between them do everything that needs to be done.  But heck, yer list might be different and be just as good.  But heck, that would be durn boring anyway.  BTW the 22 Hornet would be on my list as one.   Your 375 would be on the other in, now we just need to fill in the blanks.

[Wills Point Pete]

 I picked the Navy '92 in .45 Colt because of the strength of the action, plus the stainless. It would have been nice had I picked a profession where an honest man could retire rich, driving a county cruiser up and down the back roads of a rural county wasn't it. For the last ten+ years of my working life I kept a Marlin 1894C in the trunk, to complement my .357 service revolver. That pump shotgun is really nice for an urban Officer but in the country I wanted some distance. So I was used to lever actions before I ever heard of CAS.

Yet Marlin didn't have stainless and I got to really like stainless. There is something about being armed in all weather that makes stainless attractive.Yet, because I cannot afford to have a gazillion guns I wanted the strong action so I could go with loads from the old .45 S&W to loads very near the old factory .45-70 300 grain. The Navy Arms is that gun. It digests those old "Ruger and Thompson Contender' loads without a hiccup and no one ever believes my chrono results of a max load of H110 or Lil Gun out of that 24 inch barrel with either the 250 or 300 grain JHPs. They start believing if they shoot a couple, though. That gun backs up right smart. I toy with the idea of a recoil pad, or even a flat shotgun butt instead of that crescent steel buttplate. I haven't ever tried any hardcast bullets with those powders as I know that any cast bullet is safe in all my irons and any JHP will probably disassemble my Colt clones.

The 250 grain Hornady JHP makes a nice exit hole in a northeast Texas whitetail. A good cleaning and a quick sight adjustment and the rifle is ready for a CAS match. After the match the rifle gets another quick cleaning and sight adjustment and it's loaded with the JHPs and set ahint the back door to discourage coyotes and thieves. The Marble's Tang Sight works well for this. I know how many clicks to switch from one load to the other.

I don't claim that the .45 Colt in a Marlin or a '92 clone is the best rifle (or carbine) for everyone. If I needed a Brinks Truck to follow me around carrying my wallet I'd probably have a '73 clone in .44 WCF just for CAS. Instead I go with a multipurpose gun and it suits me just fine.

I do wonder how many other folks it would suit but were scared off by the blowback monster.

[Delmonico]

Makes a lot of sense to me Wills, I know if I was in yer position as a Law Dog out in the country, I'd want more than a bird gun to back my pistol up, most folks don't get attacked by birds much except in Hitchcock movies. 

I'm going to add another one here that I have often wondered about, in comparing the 44-40 to the 45 Colt.  In therory, with factory ammo as loaded in the 19th Century with black, I have a felling the 44-40 may have been a better, quicker killer.  It should have a little more velocity and the form of that flat point bullet should kill better than the much more pointed 45 Colt bullet, even with it's slightly heavier weight and diameter.

[Adirondack Jack]

Sunday some folks from our club offered our services to Remington's Ilion NY plant  at their annual "Step Outside" day (open house/company picnic).  Last year we did a CAS demo, so this year the powers that be decised to get together some CAS guns for their guests (employees, families an d community folk) could try them.  Rifles consisted of two NIB (literally we unwrapped them, brandy new) Marlins in .45 Colt.  After a squirt of some oil in the action and cycling them a few times, we fired five rounds through each to make sure they'd hit the steel, and they went into service.

At the end of the day we estimated that the rifles each had about 500-600 rounds through them, all Remington 250 grain "express" service loads, with nary a hiccup and they cycled MUCH better dirty and hot than they did stiff when NIB.  The innards didn't look bad at all.

FWIW we also ran three NIB  Ruger New Vaqueros, also .45 Colt, running close to 1000 rounds through each gun, with ZERO issues except one that got stiff to turn after about 100 rounds, and got a second squirt of oil.

All of these guns were loaded by a CAS shooter, handed off to a CAS  RO, who walked the guest through shooting the five rounds, then cycled back to the load/unload CAS pard and immediately made ready for the next shooter.  Three handguns served two shooting stations and two rifles served one.  The guns got VERY hot and didn't stay idle more than a minute at a time all day.  None of em was what I'd call exceptionally dirty, and the rugers would most often drop the empties by gravity (no use of ejector) even at the end of the day.

I've got some of the fired brass, and if I was gonna use it, I wouldn't even bother tumbling it.  it's that clean.

The key to this is SERVICE LOADS.

[Dr. Bob]

I shot the last two matches with Pyrodex and Holy Black 45 LC ammo in my Win. 73 clone.  I took the side plates off to see how much blow back debris was in there.  NONE!  The loads were 250 grain bullets with a compressed powder charge.  Course, I am a Wart HOG kind of guy and like lots of smoke and the ground to shake when I touch one off!  I'm not going to worry much and clean the internals a couple of times a year.

[Delmonico]

Some things just work better if they are ran the way they were designed to do.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Well, I'll put in my 2 cents here.

Dick, yer nutz - wacko - a great pard, and ... oops!   

Seriously, Dick I'm kidding 'bout the nutzy - wacko thing.    But not the rest.

I've done Cowboy (cartridge) shootin' with 2 calibers;  44 Mag. and 45 Colt.  DD is right 'bout the SAAMI specs on the 45 Colt ... the figures are wildly different and therefore ya do get 45 Colts with way-big variations from manufacturer to manufacturer, but the 44 Mag. bein' newer, is generally tighter and has much fewer variations.  However, I've shot LOTS of different rounds in both calibers and I've ONLY shot BP from the 45 Colt and I personally think the 'dirty 45' claims are somewhat overblown.  A lot.  I really don't have much blowback problems because of (IMHO) a couple reasons.  #1 - I use Winchester brass.  The Hodgdon and Sierra reps both told me that the brass alloy Winchester uses is considered to be the softest used in the ammo-loading industry and therefore will seal better.  #2 - I always load full power loads:  Doesn't matter whether I'm shootin' BP or smokeyless.  I'm a proud Warthog and believe in the "load 'em the way the factory does" crowd.  (For those who might misunderstand the term "warthog", it means using FULL POWER safe, published loads, NOT  OVER powered, UNsafe, UNpublished bunker-bustin' loadings!!  Just full, published SAFE loads!!!)

I'll git down offa my soapbox now. 

Some things just work better if they are ran the way they were designed to do.

Yep!!

[yul b. nekst]

Four pages of replies and no one mentioned the back door deal between Winchester and Colt? You know, the one where Colt agrees to not make rifles if Winchester leaves the revolver alone? Apparently, Winchester felt threatened by the Lightning. Of course in exchange for that recipe, Winchester gave Colt the makings of their internal hammer side by side. It's true! I have fuzzy tintype photos of the clandestine meetings! Of course my great, great grandpappy was really taking pics of those unknown airships that were all over Texas at the time!

[RattlesnakeJack]

Four pages of replies and no one mentioned the back door deal between Winchester and Colt? ...

I had actually considered posting about that, but didn't have time to look up the details to get it straight ... 

However, I have a vague recollection that it may have gone even a bit further than you have indicated ... something along the lines of Winchester "threatening" to start producing revolvers because of the perceived "threat" to their market posed by the Colt Lightning rifle, with Colt then revealing that they had acquired some designs/patent rights which would in turn allow them to begin producing viable lever-action rifles in direct competition with Winchester's line ... the end result being that Winchester agreed to leave the Lightning issue alone (by that time the inherent weaknesses of the Lightning design, which showed that it wasn't as much of a threat to their market position as they had feared, were probably becoming apparent, anyway) and to also stay out of revolver production, with Colt agreeing to stay out of the lever-action market. 

(Probably have that all muddled up ... can anyone post the details?)

[Delmonico]

I'll see, it is in R.L. Wilsons book on Winchesters and a picture of a couple proto- types of the revolvers, nice looking pistols if you ask me.

[Delmonico]

OK, I scanned that information.





Now Cuts, did you make some more popcorn?

[Marshal harpoluke]

 


Ah Gots Popcorn.


this is getting interesting.