Metering Black Powder?

[Gripmaker]

Noz,  You are quite right about my loading a "few" BP rounds over the years; say maybe umpteen thousand (umpteen is a Texas word for at least 11 of anything). However, I was curious how anyone could come up with some of the BP loads I've read about on this and the SASS wire, ie.  33 gr. or 47 or whatever. Some of these guys seem to think it is absolutely necessary to know and load a numerical amount per cartridge. Shooot, you ought to read some of the official loadings from ammo manufacturers back in the 1800s. "Fill 'er to the brim, Rosco and then hammer that bullet in."  Sounds like a couple of Yankee brain surgeons ready to begin messin' with somebody else's head.  One thing I have learned , "The more I learn, the more I find out I don't know."  So I just ask and wait for an answer from those who do know it.

Would love to be there Thurs. evening but I have to be on the way to Ioway. Wife's oldest brother coming in from Gross Brittania, you know.

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Gripmaker,

Yer rite on about the number thing.  I load my main match rifle and pistol ammo on a progressive press.  I set the autodisk to drop powder enough that when I seat the bullet and compress the powder I use enough pressure that the bullet won't take no more without deforming.  In other words, all the powder I kin get in the case and not wrek the boolit.

Now, just what that number is don't matter.  It's simply all I kin get in.  Is there any other way?

DD-DLoS

[Noz]

I had a long e-conversation with Driftwood Johnson on measuring Black Powder. His take is that all powder should be weighed for accuracy. The closer the accuracy required, the finer the measurement should be.
However once the weight desired has been established, for our purposes a volumetric measure that will throw a close approximation of that weight is usable. Understanding of course that each different powder will weigh somewhat differently per cubic whatever.
Therefore for my purposes 31 grs of GOEX fit into a Lee1.6 cc dipper.
To tell someone what your load is you should list the maker of the powder(GOEX), the granulation(FFFg), the actual weight in grains and, if you are using a commercial measure, the volume(cc, ci etc).

My first gun was a converted flintlock with an 1836 lock plate. The barrel was turned so that the flash hole was up, a musket cap threaded in and a percussion hammer mounted. The pan was ground off the lock plate.  It was loaded with a medium handful (11year old hand) of some kind of black, a wad of toilet paper and a  5¢ plastic pouch of BBs. Very few rabbits that got in front of it lived.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Whoops!

Hi NozzleRag

I think you are misquoting me ever so slightly. With my CAS ammo, the weight is just a reference number and I don't put a whole lot of importance to it. What is important to me is putting in the volume of powder that will achieve the amount of compression that I want with a particular bullet. Once I have found that volume I weigh it simply as a reference. You are correct that I took the finite volumes available in a Lee dipper set and chose the one that came closest to my needs. I did not go to the trouble of custom making a dipper that would give me exactly the compression I wanted. I figured close was good enough. All my CAS BP ammo gets loaded by volume, I don't weigh any of my BP CAS powder charges. But I do know exactly what the weight of powder in the cases is, because I keep a chart in my loading notebook of how much my favorite charges weigh, broken down by manufacturer and granulation. They all have the exact same volume of powder, although the weight will vary according to the manufacturer and granulation. I have even seen evidence the weight varies from lot to lot too, but I'm not keeping track of that too.

I have seen too many recipes in books over the years that say for "45 Colt, use XX.X grains of Black Powder". It just doesn't work that way. My own experience has shown that 34.5 grains of Goex FFg in a 45 Colt will compress nicely, but 34.5 grains of Elephant FFg will not even compress under the bullet. It barely meets the bottom of the bullet. So whenever anybody asks me what I'm using I make sure to express my powder charges like this: 2.2CC(approx 34.5 grains) of Goex FFg. Or 2.2CC(approx 37.5 grains) of Elephant FFg. That way there is no question. The right amount of powder goes in and compresses the right amount.

The astute reader will remark that I am probably not getting the same velocity from 2.2CC of different brands of powder, therefore my accuracy will vary. I have not done much chronograph work, but that is probably competely correct. But for CAS purposes I really don't care.

However when loading 45-70 for my Sharps I do qualify my loads by volume, brand, and granulation and I note down the powder weight for reference. If I change powders, I requalify the loads for the new powder. For my 45-70 I should probably start weighing my individual charges, I just haven't gotten quite that anal. Yet.

[Noz]

My misquoting of you was unintentional. 
I was so pleased to finally get someone to talk to me in terms I could understand.  So many people, I included, have been brought up on the mantra that black powder is only to be measured by volume.  This has never made sense to me until your explanation.
I thank you again.

I cured my powder bridging in my Lee turret press by washing with the pure dish liquid. After doing the funnels and scoops I did the dies as well.
The dish liquid has removed all static cling. An additional factor in the bridging that was also removed by the dish liquid was a chunk of bullet lube as big as a match head that was stuck in the throat of the "powder through expansion" die.
Surely that didn't have much to do with the bridging.

[Gripmaker]

OK guys, just to carry this a bit further and tread on sacred ground (not necessarily lightly), I have another question. Have any of you tried either American Pioneer Powder or Goex Pinnacle and, if so, what do you think of them? I want an honest (read that  "without prejudice") answer.  I get asked about these quite often and have used APP but not Goex. My home owner's insurance strictly forbids the storage of explosives of any type so that is what I am thinking of switching to. A friend in need is a friend indeed!

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Mr Gripmaker, sir.  Howdy!

You asked for experienced answers and I'm afraid I have NO experience with any sub save Pyrodex - and it IS still considered by Hodgdon to be a Black Powder derivative, not one of the subs.

Aside from that, I can't speculate on the "explosive" rating by your insurance company: no matter my OPINION, but BP IS classed as an explosive.  Case closed, yer Honor.

I'm not much help so far, eh?!    Well, my only input is from around the Indianapolis area.  For what APP, 777, or Pinnacle cost around HERE, you can buy 2.2 cans of Lidu and about 1.65 (and in one place, more than that - DD and my favorite place in Waldron, IN.) cans of normal (ie: NOT Cartridge, etc.) Goex of any granulation.

I don't know how that info will help but here it is.    Others with whom I shoot have used the subs and are very happy with them.

Keep yer powder dry!


PS - I'd include the address & phone # of the place in Waldron - they DON'T have a website - but since I know how to get there I don't bother calling as I've misplaced their ph. #.         )