bottom pour vs ladle

[yul b. nekst]

Here's somethin' for discussion: I have a LEE bottom pour melter. Every bullet from my Lyman 454190 came out as though it rolled around in sand. There was no mirror finish, and one side on each bullet (a two bullet mould) came out rough. At first I thought I had a bad mould and returned it for another. Well, that did the same thing. Next I contacted my lead supplier. No problem there. I drained the pot looking for impurities, but no problem there. Someone suggested I try the ladle and forget the bottom pour. Well, sir, those bullets came out so shiny I could wax my mustache in them! I was told that Lee has a problem with the size of their spout and the lead's temp changes as it runs out the bottom, thus giving me rough sided bullets. I don't understand this concept. Anyone else have a problem with LEE? Anyone have a problem like I described with RCBS, etc.? I am using a Lyman thermometer for temp consistancy. But, no matter what, my basic question is why do I get class A bullets using the ladle, and garbage from the bottom pour?

[Cuts Crooked]

Donno pard.

I have no problems whatsoever with my Lee bottom pour pot. It is the best way to deal with six cavity big lube molds, especially my 400 gr 45-70 mold...thats a LOT of metal going into a mold all at once!

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy!

Yul, I'm a relative newbie when it comes to casting.  I've been at it seriously for about a year, with only about 3000 boolits done so far.  I cast the 250 gr. BigLube PRS in .454 (made by Lee - 6 gang aluminum mould) and the 525 gr. Lyman .458 #457132 (single, iron) for my 45-70.  I do this from a Lee Pro Pot 4, 20#'er.  I'd heard all the stories about pour vs. ladle and mentally was ready for everything. 

The first I did was the BigLube and tried the pour method for simplicity.  I use about an 8-1 alloy of wheelweights and pure lead.  Well, durned if it didn't do great!  I haven't even felt the need to try ladling.   The Lyman was a different story.  I tried pouring.  Got the rough finish AND it wouldn't fill out the mould.  Now part of this problem could be fixed by adding some tin as I'm casting the 45-70 bullets from nearly pure lead.  Or so I've heard - I don't really know as the finances demand that I use what I've got, not buy extra tin.  Then I called and talked to a Lee tech.  He suggested that I hold the mould so that it is tilted slightly and there is about a 1/2" space between the sprue plate and the bottom of the pour spout.  This causes the lead to sort of swirl into the lube groove recesses at the base of the mould.  Well, that worked.  Sort of.  Sometimes, using either wheelweight alloy or my nearly pure lead mix, it would do great: other times it was still a smooth bullet, but not totally filled out.

Well, I decided to try ladling.  Problem solved.  Mostly.    Now, I'm working on MY skills to make better bullets consistently!

There ya have it.  I think it proves the saying; "Try it: different strokes for different folks."

Happy casting.

[Dick Dastardly]

Check the flow rate from your bottom pour spigot.  Is the metal flowing at the spigot at roughly the same rate you are pouring from your ladle?  Also, are you holding your ladle in contact with the sprue cutter recess as you pour?  Same for the bottom pour spigot?  Try the mold tilt/air gap pour method mentioned by Steel Horse above and see if that helps.

I've not been able to duplicate your experience.  That doesn't mean it isn't real,  it just means your experience is unique to me.

The problem sounds like more of a temperature or alloy question, or both.  I'll be watching this thread.

Thanks for reporting.

DD-DLoS

[Delmonico]

I've found sometimes different moulds work better with a different technique.  I have a RCBS 500 BPS mould, It gave a lot of frjects with a bottom drop Leem trying several different pour methods and diping.  Got mad at it held the opening right up against the spot and tried that, a method that won't work if you read what most others say.  Shhh, don't tell the mould that don't work.   BTW none of my other moulds works worth a damn that way.

[sundance44`s]

Something else if your not doing it already ..you do need to stur the bottom of the melt pot before you flux it ..there`s alot of trash on the bottom ..and those type pots do pour from the bottom ...
I used one of the Lee electric pots for about a year , but I wore out the heating element and went back to casting over fire and pouring with a ladle...much easyer to keep my molds hot useing the fire under the pot when I take a short break ..can`t sit on a stool for too long , or I`ll have to crawl back to the house ..

[Noz]

I use Lee's 20# bottom pour and you couldn't make me go back to ladle pouring.
I hate the drip tho.
Anybody got a cure for that?

I have a double cavity 300 gr Lee .430 mold that I had a great deal of trouble with. It would frost and/or wrinkle in one spot on the side of the nose of the bullet in both cavities. I did everything I could think of and finally sent it back to Lee. They sent me a new mold and told me to turn the temp down about 100 degrees and hold the mold a little farther from the spout.
Problem solved.

I have a custom brass mold from Mountain Molds that if it is anywhere near proper temperature, the first pour will give 2 good bullets.

[Delmonico]

NR, have you ever emptied the pot, let it cool and cleaned it good?  I do that any time mine starts to drip a bit or I see crud coming out of it into the boolets.  I let it cool fill it with wite vingar and when it's dome bubbling I empty and rinse with water.  Inside is like new, And of coures don't let any water get in the electrical part and let the pot warm a bit before putting lead in it again.

[Paladin UK]

Sundance is right on the money here.

You have really got to make sure that yer alloy/lead or whatever is clean!! And constant stirring the bottom of the pot and removal of crap from the surface along with regular fluxing will keep ya running sweet!

I have been casting for about 20yrs and believe it or not I had ta buy my 2nd Lee pot in May!!   Not a bad return fer my money!! 

Also FWIW. I always run the pot dry and then clean it, I have been told its OK to leave metal in it but I like ta start a casting session with a clean pot. 

Iffn you are new ta casting n melting down lead etc. ............Never, Never NEVER cast without protection fer ya eyes `n lungs

Paladin (What actually enjoys castin boolits  ) UK

[Noz]

I've used a 10lb Lee pot for several years. When it would start to leak I would tap the upper end of the control rod. I finally tapped it right out the bottom of the pot. The pot in question is a new, this last spring, 20lb pot. It leaked with the first melt.
The leak is not enough to make me get rid of it but it is a bother.
I've never used vinegar.
I always leave metal in the pot to get the next melt going easier.

Maybe I need to re-learn some old stuff.

I'll heat it up and drain it and do the vinegar routine.

[Cuts Crooked]

  The control rod on my Lee 20#er has a screwdriver slot on the top of it. If I start getting a drip, I use a screwdriver to turn the rod back and forth a few times, while maintaining a slight downward pressure on the rod...no more drip.

[Adirondack Jack]

The control rod on my Lee 20#er has a screwdriver slot on the top of it. If I start getting a drip, I use a screwdriver to turn the rod back and forth a few times, while maintaining a slight downward pressure on the rod...no more drip.

yep, and the back end of the screwdriver, giving the screw head a sharp tap sometimes works too

Back to the original question, I'd mess around with how far I opened the tap, and how far the lead dropped before hitting the sprue plate to see if the issues went away.  Depending on the bullet yer casting, a good, healthy flow rate and a short drop (almost touching the sprue plate with the nozzle) might help.  I also like to pour a little off center, allowing the lead to flow in one side of the hole and air to come out readily.  It seems to prevent air being trapped.

[Delmonico]

To go back to the drip. if dross gets down in the valve seat and on the valve it will leack, turning it with a screw driver will most opten stop it for the casting session but I've found that is a good sign that it is getting dirty.  I always take me valve out and clean it with #0000 steel wool and also I take a pair of hemostats and some more of the same and clean the seat well.

BTW if leaving lead in the pot and it happens to be either pure lead or Linotype do not leave more than a 1/4 of a pot of it in there.  both pure lead and Lino go from a solid to a liquid with out that in between stage of other alloys.  This can cause either the expanding liquid metal to push the top up and open the valve or it can cause a "Lead Volcano" either which can cause you to get the heck burned out of you or can cause a fire.

[yul b. nekst]

Thanks fer the advice fellars. I, too, had contacted both Lee and Lyman. Per their recommendations I did the mould tilt thing along with varying the pour distance, but that was still a no go. It's odd because no matter how I ladled, up against the sprue, away from it, etc., I never had a problem with the finished bullet-always shiny and filled out. But, brother, I do the bottom pour thing, and blamo, a bullet that looks like it was recovered from an Indian Wars battlefield.  I guess it's just an anomaly I'll have to live with. I learned casting back in the 70's, ladling out of an old cast pot. I shouldn't complain too much, at least now with the Lee I have temp control!

[Goatlips]

Yul,

Another place to post your question is over on the cast boolit forum.  These guys have more boolit molds than most of us have screwdrivers. 

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?f=8

Goatlips

[springfield]

You say the surface is rough like sand. Does it FEEL rough or only LOOK rough. Maybe you are just gettring frosted bullets on one side. I have had that happen but the bullet are just fine. Sometimes moulds don't heat up exactly the same on all sides. I have not had any surface roughness on bullets using a bottom pour, not from my 3 LEES, my RCBS or now my Magma. As for the drip, some guys have taken a small vice grip and clamped it on there permanently to add some weight to the metering rod. 

[yul b. nekst]

Springfield,
No, it isn't a frost. It's an actual sand (rough) feeling on one side of both bullets (two bullet block) that isn't there when I ladle, only bottom pour. Thought it was the mould, then the lead, but realize it's the bottom pour somehow doing it.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

My Lee 20 pound bottom pour pot tends to drip sometimes too. I have the one with the 4" clearance underneath and the little adjustable shelf to slide my mold along. I always leave an ingot mold on the base of the pot to catch the drips. The drips tend to build up a little stalagmite in the ingot mold and I throw the stalagmite back in the pot when it builds up big enough. What I hate is the mini drops of hot lead that sometimes splash off the irregular surface of the stalagmite and land on my right arm.

Before my last casting session I removed the needle rod from the pot to see if it had any problems. I couldn't see any digs or dents or bumps or anything so I reassembled it, and heated up the pot. When it started dripping again I grabbed the rod with my gloved fingers and gave it a couple of good hard twirls with some downward pressure. I must have dislodged some tiny piece of drek stuck down in the nozzle because the dripping stopped. Next time it starts dripping again I will do the same.

The instructions that came with the Lee pot say to leave a bit of alloy in the bottom of the pot when you are done casting. The reason is there will be more surface contact between the pot and a cooled plug of lead than individual ingots and the initial melt will be quicker. I prefer to completely empty my pot at the end of each session because I use two slightly different alloys to cast a couple of different bullets and I don't want to mix them up. When the pot cools down I scrub off all the dross, drek, and scum that has accumulated on the bottom and sides of the pot. I think I'll try that vinegar trick next time.

All I have ever used are the Lee aluminum 6 cavity molds. The bottom pour is perfect for them, but even with the bottom pour there is a little bit of technique. There is something to be said for the way the lead pours into the cavities and swirls around inside to completely fill the mold. In the real world of injection molding, pressure is used to completely fill a mold. We don't have the luxury of pressure, we only have gravity. Sometimes you have to experiment a bit to get gravity to work right for you. I bought a ladel when I first bought my pot, but only attempted to use it a few times. My results were not good. I'm sure if I spent the time I could develop a technique that would work well with a ladel, but so far, just sliding the mold along underneath the spigot has worked very well for me to quickly fill 6 cavities.