How were bayonet frogs worn?

Injun Ryder · July 29, 2007, 02:34:50 PM

I have been unable to find a reference indicating how these items were worn and would appreciate any assistance on this matter.

If I put the hook under a belt, the US is hidden, if over, the head of the bayonet is at the wrong angle.

Grapeshot · July 29, 2007, 07:30:44 PM

The scabbard is in the frog backwards. The socket should be outboard the body of the wearer. The brass hook fits in a rectangular ring hung from the woven belt and attached by a pair of copper rivits.

It can also be looped over the woven cartridge bely with the hook inbetween two shells or through the cartridge loop.

Injun Ryder · July 29, 2007, 10:27:27 PM

Grapeshot - Thanks for the response. As it is now, the tab on the flat side of the scabbard is tightly affixed to the rear of the frog. I suppose I will have to loosen the tab to reverse the scabbard with the tab to the front.

Pitspitr · July 30, 2007, 06:54:27 AM

"As it is now, the tab on the flat side of the scabbard is tightly affixed to the rear of the frog. I suppose I will have to loosen the tab to reverse the scabbard with the tab to the front. "

I wouldn't go loosening it just yet. The later frogs were worn as Grapeshot says. However; everything I'm finding says the earlier ones were worn as your photo shows

Injun Ryder · July 30, 2007, 09:23:14 AM

Pitspitr - Would the ring that the hook attaches to be at an angle to the body? In other words, where should the head(?) of the bayonet be positioned? With the ring parallel to the body and the US facing out, the head of the bayonet would be next to the body. If the ring were on a swivel of some sort (like some key rings), it might reach a state of equilibrium next to the body where there is no extra force against the body at any point.

St. George · July 30, 2007, 10:18:02 AM

You seem to have a Model 1887 Bayonet Scabbard for the Model 1873 Bayonet.

The hook arrangement was designed by William Emerson - of Emerson Silver Company - and was designed to slide over the then-issue woven cartridge belt, either displacing a single round, or sliding between the rounds.

It was 'not' designed for a square loop or rectangular ring, since 'that' was designed to accomodate the hangar of the Light Cavalry Saber.

Typically - the Bayonet itself was inserted with the bottom of the blade at the 'rounded' side of the scabbard - worn on the left side, since the stitching that held the bayonet throat didn't move - and the flat side faced the soldier's body.

Earlier frogs were designed with a teardrop-shaped 'stud' that was secured through the front of the frog - the Model 1887 was constructed differently, and initially featured a leather loop arrangement for the leather waistbelt that was soon done away with with the advent of web equipment.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

Pitspitr · July 30, 2007, 10:42:07 AM

Good answer St. G. I was hoping you'd answer.
What was the model # of the trianglular bayonet frog that featured a small brass wire hook that attached to a brass loop woven into the bottom of the woven belt? Or did that just end up being expiremental?

Injun Ryder · July 30, 2007, 11:03:53 AM

St. George - Thank you for the info. I am not familiar with the details regarding the bayonets. This bayonet is trangular with the "flat" side on the same side where the bayonet "head" is located. Likewise, as stated above, the flat side of the scabbard is to the back of the frog.

I guess I could reverse the scabbard to have the flat side facing out (along with the head of the bayonet). It would solve the problem that I am having. I am not trying to achieve true authenticity, just a way to carry it at a SASS match.

St. George · July 30, 2007, 11:19:46 AM

Given that your scabbard is assembled properly and that the frog is sewn to the scabbard body - the scabbard and frog 'are' correct.

Damaging it an an attempt to reverse it serves no purpose.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

St. George · July 30, 2007, 11:25:26 AM

You're referring to the Pattern 1878 Bayonet Scabbard.

It featured a two-piece arrangement of black leather 'collar' and brass wire hook.

It was designed for use with the experimental Pattern 1876 woven belt - and that belt featured three brass loops for attachment of the Bayonet or the Entrenching Tool.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

Injun Ryder · July 30, 2007, 02:03:32 PM

The scabbard is attached to the leather of the frog with only a metal tab holding it in place. It is not sewn on.

If anyone has pictures showing the proper scabbard/bayonet arrangements, I would appreciate seeing them. Also, if my posting of any additional pictures might clarify any of my above statements, I would be more than happy to post them.

Are there any identifying marks that would be helpful?

St. George · July 30, 2007, 03:50:34 PM

The combination of that tab and the snugness of the sewn leather were enough to provide a 'very' tight hold on the scabbard body.

The scabbard 'flat' is supposed to be worn towards the body - the slight 'swivel' allows for the bayonet to be carried at an angle and drawn from an angle - no doubt making it an easy draw for the well-equipped Infantryman of the time, and keeping the lock arrangement angled close to the soldier's center - and not outboard, where it could catch on things.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!