How would a ten second penalty for misses change the game?

[Dr. Bob]

Dr. Bob, NCOWS member here.

We have several members of our local posse that shoot SASS more than NCOWS.  One of them, Col. Diamond, went to the NCOWS Nationals which has the 10 second miss and shot just like he always does [on my posse at the Ntl's] and won his class.  He is as accurate as he is fast, it would appear.   Doesn't seem to bother him at all.

I'm part of the group that Cammie referred to, I like to shoot and socialize and I'm certainly there just for the fun.  Winning is fun, but at my stage of life [63 with a mild disability] way to much work for fun!

I offer this only as an observation.  I only shoot NCOWS, so I don't have a pony in this particular race.

[Delmonico]

Acually there is a type of shootin' of old firearms that places accuracy over speed, it's called "Long Range Shooting"  Several different types of it and you don't get penalized for missing, you just don't get anything for missing.   Any group of folks interested in it could sure add other forms than is commonly done.  Also I doubt if any one would care if you used any of the so called "wimp loads."

Of course it's also a game that if you don't want to work up accurate loads and learn to be a really good shot, you won't have much fun at it.  The nice thing about shooting sports is that one can find some type if it that fits what you like to do.  NCOWS offers a forum different than SASS, SASS offers different that NCOWS and so on and so forth.  Heck if one could come up with a new style that "everyone" would like and successfully promote it, one could get rich at it or so I've been told.

[Deadeye Don]

NCOWS has the 10 second penalty which I believe is a good thing.   If you think about the "real" old west, it really didnt matter how fast you were on the draw when you were hunting or protecting your family.  What mattered most was making your bullets count.  Shooting fast at a deer didnt necessarily put food on the table.  I only have shot NCOWS matches and for now prefer it that way.  I really dont care about the timer or how fast I can get through a particular stage.  I do care about having fun and hitting what I am aiming at.  If you add up the actual time you shoot at most matches I think you would see it is a very brief blurr of time.  I certainly have no interest in making my shooting time go faster than it already does.  The 10 second penalty makes  me slow down and enjoy my shooting time more.  The best advice I got from an NCOWS pard was to "not be in a hurry while shooting".  He was right.    Safe shooting.  Deadeye.

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[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Does not matter one bit to me. Five seconds, ten, whatever you want. I will still miss just as many and I will still be the slowest shooter on the posse.

[RattlesnakeJack]

I'm with you Deadeye and Driftwood!

For those of us who ain't ever gonna shoot at the top of the pack, I figger the best motto is:  "What's most important is lookin' good ... and speed just blurs the image!"   

Mind you ... to this day I still occasionally find myself succumbing to that most illogical of thought processes: 
"Ooops, I'm missing too many ... gotta hurry up!"      

[Arcey]

I decided to look at last month’s scores.  Assigning ten second penalties to my misses, two, and leaving everyone else’s scores as they were I would have dropped four positions overall.  It wouldn’t have had any affect on my finish in my category.

[Irish Dave]

I guess it just depends on how you look at it.

If we are supposed to be basing our shooting scenarios on an Old West-style shootout (which seems to be the case listening to the set-ups etc), and are supposed to, in some way, recreate our version of a "real" gunfight, then I believe the well-known quote is "Speed is fine, but accuracy is final."

If our stages are just supposed to be bothersome excuses to run our guns, then I can see where speed would be more important to a few than whether they hit anything or not.

I would also respectfully disagree that clubs should have no responsibility in helping their shooters improve their skills.
If a club's attitude is simply every-man-for-himself or "If you're no good, well, then you're just easier to beat," that doesn't seem to be in the "spirit of the game" and probably the wrong reason to have a club in the first place.

But that's just one opinion.

[Doc Shapiro]

Irish Dave, it's more a matter of "I don't care how fast or how slow or how accurately/inaccurately you shoot, so long as you're safe and having a lot of fun."

I don't want to go to a club shoot where the attitude is "we're going to make you a better shooter."  Isn't it my decision if I want to become better or not, regardless of how you define "better"?

Doc

[Phantom]

I agree with Doc.

Furthermore, I think it's sad that some folks want to slow others down 'cause they ain't all that fast.

Clean shoots are meaningless if it take ya a day-n-a-half to complete a stage.

Phantom

[Driftwood Johnson]

Clean shoots are meaningless if it take ya a day-n-a-half to complete a stage.

Well there is a blanket statement that I have to dissagree with. As stated earlier, I am usually the slowest shooter on the posse. My only goal is to get a clean shoot. Still, a clean shoot has eluded me for three years now, the last time I got one. No matter how slow you shoot, it is still possible to miss. Don't think for a minute that just because some of us shoot slow we don't forget to put the front sight on the target everyonce in a while. I managed to have six misses on one stage at the New England Regional this weekend. And there is also the bugabo of waiting until the smoke clears so we can see the target. A couple of times old slowpoke here rushed the shot a little bit because I thought I could see the target. Turns out I couldn't.

[Phantom]

DJ,

Take the timer away and it would be no problem to shoot clean. The timer makes sure that you are aware that this game is a Timed event and human naturer dictates that you rush yourself. No matter how clean you try and shoot, the element of time has been registered in your brain.

Phantom

[Arcey]

Furthermore, I think it's sad that some folks want to slow others down 'cause they ain't all that fast.

That may or may not be the point.

There are a standard set of rules for both SASS and NCOWS.  Personally, I prefer SASS.

The notion of “improving” a shooter, to me, goes along power factors and/or objections of targets too big or too close.  The game is what it is.

We’d all be best off to leave every-man-for-himself and keep our noses out of one another’s guncart, so to speak, unless said nose is invited.

As Will described earlier, don’t mess up my game by trying to help someone else.  That’s what democrats do.

[Phantom]

Well said Arcey!

[Arcey]

Well said Arcey!

Thanks.....

[Jefro]

I don't understand why some people are allways trying to change things to slow down the top shooters when all it does is make it harder for the rest of us. Why have an SASS match and not use SASS rules?? If you want a NCOWS match then advertise as such. Many of us shoot at a lot of differant clubs as well as state, annual and EOT. Changing the rules around causes a lot of confusion when we go to differant clubs to compete.. I know its just a game, but nothing can be more frustrsting than to be at a large match and have some one arguing ''thats how we do it at our club''. There are many other shooting sports out there if I want to improve my accuracey, but CAS is not a bullseye sport and we do use a timer. I do enjoy the long range side matches. This is a game where family and friends can get together for some fun and keep new shooters coming back for more. Nothing against NCOWS if one was close by I'd shoot there also.

John Barleycorn, great alias

   Jefro,  Relax-Enjoy

[Irish Dave]

Doc:

Goods points all and to some extent I agree with you.

I don't want to go to that kind of shoot, either. No one wants to be condescended to. I guess, though,  I see us (SASS or NCOWS, doesn't matter) helping fellow shooters improve their game all the time -- load tips, better transitions, sight picture tips, helpful hints all the way around. To me that's also part of a good club's responsibility.
My point was that I don't see how any group can claim "spirit of the game" and "it's not our job to help you" at the same time.
 
 *   *   *
I will take issue (and mild offense) with those who suggest that persons interested in accuracy or who find no challenge in 4' by 4' targets at 6 feet distance are somehow just "slow" shooters who can't compete. That's ridiculous and IMHO, demonstrates a significant lack of perspective and a narrowness of experiences.

Truth is, you can't miss fast enough to win.

Don't know about others, but I'm certainly not trying to slow down or penalize the "fast" or "top" shooter -- provided he/she can hit what they're aiming at.  I thought that was the point of the shooting sports in the first place. I was only suggesting that some clubs prefer targets that require aiming the pistol to hit and some don't. I personally don't care what any group/club chooses to do. It's 100 percent their choice. I'll play where I prefer, just as I'm sure we all do. The old saying is "when in Rome, do as the Romans do." I'll play by the rules of wherever I'm shooting. Just seems like that's as it ought to be. If I don't like it, I won't go back, but I won't whine and bitch because it's not that same as somewhere else.

Relax, there's no conspiracy here.

[Camille Eonich]

If a club's attitude is simply every-man-for-himself or "If you're no good, well, then you're just easier to beat," that doesn't seem to be in the "spirit of the game" and probably the wrong reason to have a club in the first place.

How can a club have the attitude that it's every man for themself?  A club puts on matches that will promote the club and better the club.  If the club isn't doing that it's going to fail.  Individuals help individuals better themselves and many times the club will help individuals achieve their goals by making the clubs assetts more available to individuals.


I have not met a single individual in CAS that has the attitude that they don't want to help other shooters better themself and I haven't met a single person in CAS that would not lend their competition guns and or ammo in order to finish a match when they have had problems.  All of the top shooters that I know are always willing to lend you their eyes and give you tips and tricks on how to better yourself in competition.  That's a pretty amazing statement isn't it?  Also 100% true.

[Irish Dave]

Cammie:

How can clubs have that attitude? Frankly, I never saw any that did. But then I read on this thread, the following:

I never understood improving a shooter’s accuracy to be my responsibility.

It's not the responsibility of the club to make shooters better or more accurate.

We’d all be best off to leave every-man-for-himself…

…don’t mess up my game by trying to help someone else.

Sounds pretty much like "it ain't my job"  or "every man for himself" to me. Those are others' words, Cammie, not mine. What would you call it?
If that's what folks believe, that's fine with me, but I felt obligated to respond with a different viewpoint since what I read here certainly is different from mine.

I agree, I've never run into this attitude on any range, ar at any club. But some are saying it here. And I disagree.

As far as I'm concerned, any CAS or WAS shooter who won't help another or who resents some because they might hinder their game:
1) Ought to be ashamed;
2)Takes themselves far too seriously; and
3) Is in the sport for the wrong reasons.

The man started a reasonable thread asking for opinions on what a change in penalties might do to the sport. Not sure how it got to here.

[Camille Eonich]

As far as I'm concerned, any CAS or WAS shooter who won't help another or who resents some because they might hinder their game:
1) Ought to be ashamed;
2)Takes themselves far too seriously; and
3) Is in the sport for the wrong reasons.

You're back to the individual shooter versus a club or an officer of a club.  The purpose of a match is to have a good time and to play whatever the individual's definition of a good time is.  It's up to the match director and stage writer to help insure that the majority of the people have a good time.  Individuals within the club may think that the most fun that they can have is by helping others and that's great.  Others may think that the the faster the match is the more fun it is while yet others want more challenging stages and smaller targets.

The man started a reasonable thread asking for opinions on what a change in penalties might do to the sport. Not sure how it got to here.

How we got here is because some people took issue with Arcey's statement that as a stage writer it is not his responsibility to help  others improve their accuracy.  I know Arcey personally though and all you have to do is ask him and he'll help you any way that he can.


I'll also repeat myself in that I don't personally believe that 10 second penalties help anybody improve accuracy.  I also don't believe that small targets far away help you improve accuracy.  AS pointed out earlier there probably isn't a one of us here that, if off the timer couldn't clean every single match despite the target size and or distance away.  Furthermore, I believe that if you practice on targets that are smaller and further away than the norm that it will build in slowness even when shooting at closer and larger targets.

Practice is what determines how we shoot a match.

[Doc Shapiro]

Good answer Cammy!

Irish Dave, she's absolutely right. You seem to be confusing the obligation of the club from what individuals may do.  Personally, I love to teach folks how to shoot better.  However, when I was MD, it wasn't my responsibility in that role to do so.  I've even run into some shooters that just aren't interested in improving.  They are having fun.  As a MD, that was my goal.  To make sure folks were having fun.

As a shooter, I will continue to help those that are interested.  As a MD, I won't set up a match with that goal (shooter improvement) in mind.