? Battle Rifle use

[James Hunt]

For my information: If I showed up at a GAF shoot I could portray a post CW pre-1870 indian wars cavalry trooper. Correctly attired and accoutered I could use my Rem New Model .44 with Sharps conversion carbine (both original) - right? If the answer is yes for the latter...

I could use the .50-70 but would have to figure a load that would incorporate a bullet weight of less than 405 g and with no fancy gizmo to determine fps, charge of probably less than 50 g of black? Not sure what light bullet of .515 bore size is out there, or if the twist would stabilize such. Also less than 50 g in a .50-70 case sounds like a fair amount of cream of wheat or a shoe box full of cardboard wads. But if the later could be figured out I could participate?

There is no way I could slip an official a few bucks and a case of beer to allow the standard 450 grainer - that would leave me only figuring out the powder download?

The reason for my curiosity is that a couple of civil war types from MI are interested in coming out to the GAF shoot in Sept(?) and portraying an Indian wars trooper but they have those Spencer things.

[Dusty Tagalon]

If your pards have infantry Spencers, one of the classes available is "Infantry", where you only use a rifle.

Dusty

[Hell-Er High Water]

James,

Here is what I use in my 50-70's to approximately duplicate the U.S. Gov't carbine load of 1870.

Rapine 512-350-T bullet.  358 gr +/- cast from straight wheel weights.  Sized 0.512" and lubed with either SPG or DD's Pearl Lube.

3.1 cc (approx 43.0 gr) of GOEX FFg powder thrown from a Lyman black powder measure and dropped through the Lyman drop tube.

A tuft of "PURE" cotton over the powder that completly fills the case to the mouth.  Pure cotton burns to ash, synthetic cotton melts and may leave a mess in your barrel. In a safe location you can test the cotton by holding a small tuft in a pair of tweezers and lighting it with a match.  Again, pure cotton will burn to ash, synthetic cotton will melt.

Overall cartridge length is 2.110" and the bullet is firmly crimped in the case.  Seating the bullet compresses the cotton and holds the powder securely in the case.

These are loaded in either Bell, Bertram or Starline cases and standard Winchester large rifle primers are used.

This has proved to be an accurate load and is pleasant to shoot.  Full power 50-70 loads from carbines can be brutal when you are shooting more than a few rounds.

Hope that this helps.

HHW

[James Hunt]

Dusty: These fella's have carbines and are doing a cav impression as I would be doing also. So I take it that infantry fella's shoot a course where you are allowed to do rifle loads? I assume the range is then appropriate for rifle? So would those doing a cav with period correct weapons and ammo be doing the same? With the load described below would I shoot in a different category? Sorry we don't know anything about GAF shoots or rules.

HHW: Great info thanks. What are you shooting those in? I take it that they stabilize and are an accurate load say to 100 yds? Its just that the normal .50 of 450 g seems pretty darn short to me and I wonder how a "shorter" bullet would do. Is your bore .512 or larger? I take it that with lead or 20-1 that these would bump up to my bore of .515. Interesting use of cotton - never have done that before but am game to try. You are right, my normal .50 loads shot in my carbine leave me satisfied after about 20 rds - more and I begin to feel it. Also wonder where POI would be with sites, might just work out because my carbine shoots 9 inches high at 100 yds with standard load.

[Dusty Tagalon]

Spencers will not damage the targets. For the most part, rifle targets are at CAS range. Last year at the Muster, Sgt Drydock shot a downloaded Krag (lead bullets), & a Spencer carbine. Neither had any adverse affect on the targets.

Dusty

[James Hunt]

Dusty: so if I down loaded my .50-70 carbine as describe by HHW, I and my compadres shooting spenders would shoot a CAS like competition? I realize I am stumbling thru this.

[Major Matt Lewis]

James,

You should be alright.  Dusty is spot on for most of the GAF Rifle targets.  Next year have some loads you can hit with at 200 yards.

[Hell-Er High Water]

James,

I am shootig this load in two carbines.

The first is a Remington Rolling Block that I call a "project gun".  I made this gun up from parts of several guns, it has the barrel shortened to 21" and I relined the barrel with a 6 groove, .50 caliber liner.  The liner has a bore dia of 0.500", a groove dia of 0.510" and a 1:20" twist.

The second is an original 1869 Trapdoor Springfield that has been cut down from a rifle to make a carbine (by someone else - NOT ME).  The barrel is 22" long and it is a 3 groove barrel.  The best that I can measure a slug driven through the 3 groove barrel is a 0.500" bore dia and a 0.513" groove dia.  I have never measured the twist on this gun.

The Rapine bullet drops from my mould at 0.515" dia when cast from wheel weights and the best description of it is that it looks similar to similar to a Dick Dasterdly "Big Lube" bullet with one large grease groove.  Quite possibly you could pan lube these and not size them at all for your use.  Bullet stability is not so much of a problem when using a lighter bullet than what a gun was designed for but in using a heavier bullet which needs a more rapid twist to stabilize it.

Accuracy with both of these guns with this load is about 6" dia, 5 shot groups at 100 yards.  Not the best, but acceptable for what they are used for.

HHW

[Drydock]

As long as you are using Black Powder under a conical bullet, I cannot imagine any way you can load your carbine in excess of 1400 fps.  Head down to the Spencer page, there is an excellent 350 grain mold down there, as well as the Rapine, and others. 

It is a CAS style match, though with only 2 guns, a rifle and pistol.  Expect multiple reloads.  If you want to use a percussion gun, best to have extra revolvers or cylinders that can be precharged and capped on the clock for reloads.  You can of course, simply shoot your Remington and take the misses for the reloads if you wish/if thats what you have.  We're here to have fun.

Please review both the Battle Rifle entry, as well as the registration entry at the top of this page.  I hope to see you there.  Drydock.

Please understand and make it clear to your friends: this is not reinacting, but a get together of like minded individuals to enjoy the weapons and acoutrrements of the Victorian era, in a multigun combat style match.  We'll have folks period correct down to the stitchs in their long johns, and we'll have folks uniformed by John Ford, and folks who ain't quite sure what all this is, but they'd like to try it.  All are welcome.

[James Hunt]

Dusty, HHW, Major Matt, and Sgt. Drydock: Thanks for all your iput. A picture is beginning to emerge in my head as to what this is all about and it sounds interesting. I have relayed this to my friends and we will see if we can put this together. Thanks again.

Regards, Jim

[panhead pete]

Jim,

I tried to post to our other site but was booted off.  Perhaps because I used the M word, you know, with a couple of Z's and a couple of L's in it. 

At any rate, I am using the Lyman mold designed for the Armi-Sport Spencer.  I purchased through Buffalo Arms, but it is available through Midway as well.   It is a 350 grain .515 flat point.   Mine is available if you would prefer not buying.

I will be off line until Monday as we are heading to the Grand Canyon of PA. 

Happy Trails,

Panhead