Sewing machine problem fix????

Slowhand Bob · July 03, 2007, 08:55:15 AM

My love/hate affair with sewing machines has been going on for over two years now and my inventory now includes three machines. Now if my old dad was still alive, he would be the first to tell ya thet I'm not the brightest bulb in the pack but my machine problems have gone beyond that to a degree. Yes many problems are/were based on my old dawg ways but some just go beyond that. Well I solved one of them problems, thanks to one of the techs at Artisan and now I'll share what Ive got so far.

My three machines are a BOSS, an Aerostitch and the big TORO 4000 and had learned to like all of them within limitations that seemed well below those promised. I have been stuck at a limiting weight of around + or - 20ozs of leather that the machines could handle dependably without major problems. This limits one to a fairly light mainseam without fillers for sheath and holster work. When I would reach the machines limit(any one of them) it would start chattering and skipping stitches up to the point that the needles would occasionally lock and bend/break. One clue was a bit of really fine spider web cracking around each stitch hole. With needles running at over a dollar a pop this can be an expensive learning process.

Well, for some reason this seems to be a common problem that no one gets informed of, according to the tech. He pointed the finger at dry leather, a problem that can vary over such a degree as to be hard to put a finger on. I would have thought that the thread lube pot would have prevented this but he said no. As proof to his suggestion, I stacked 40+ozs of belt strapping under the needle and then lubed the needle, not he thread, a bit with some of my handsewing wax and started to sew. Sure enough I got a few beautiful stitches before chattering set in again. Running a few stitches, waxing the needle and stitching again proved that all of the machines could handle at least close to 50ozs before I stopped.

The tech suggested wetting the sewing line, caseing, before stitching heavy leather laminations. I hope to try some more sperryminting today and hope to find a more workable solution to the problem. As further info, I am told that it is not a leather quality issue and probly not related to my shop storage conditions?

Later.

Trailrider · July 03, 2007, 10:11:47 AM

Howdy, Pard,

Are you using leather-sewing needles? That can make a big difference! If you are, then what SIZE needles are you using? I have a Juki TSC 440, and for stitching cartridge loops (4-5 oz) to belts (8-9 oz), I use a #160 needle with #207 thread. For heavier work I use #200 needles with #277 thread for most work. I cold wax the bobbin thread only, using a wax pot through which I feed the thread when winding the bobbins. Messy, but it works.

Is you machine really heavy duty enough for the work?

Hope this helps some...

Slowhand Bob · July 05, 2007, 07:29:29 AM

Good to verbalise with you again.

I have experimented quite a bit with the threads and needles but usually end up with the factory recommended suggestions. Most commonly used in the two Tippmanns are a 277 top thread, a 207 bobbin thread and a 230 needle. With the Toro I use a 346 top thread, a 277 bobbin thread and a 250 needle. The needles are a straight chisel point style. The large thread size is an appearance thing as I like the look of big thread on western gear.

I use a lube pot with silicon thread lube on the top thread but have not tried lubing the bobbin thread yet. It should be fairly easy to apply it to the pre-wound bobbin with a dropper.

According to my understanding, the Toro 4000 is an exact copy of the Juki 441 and all parts are interchangable. If I remember correctly the housings were actually made by Juki and all other parts are supposedly interchangeable. Even the Chinese are now copying the Juki 441 with machines showing up on EBAY under $2000 dollars in the recent past. I think this had a small part in the demise of the Tippmann Aerostitch.

The problem is not one of bogging but rather the leather binds and lifts as the needle starts its upward travel. That fraction of an inch of lift plays havoc with the timing and causes missed stitches. I do have a couple of thoughts/questions I would like to talk with you about but will save them for the future. Slowhand Bob

Trailrider · July 05, 2007, 02:42:01 PM

Howdy, again, Pard,

I use a waxing pot mounted on top of my TSC 441 (I call her "Kate" because Juki is owned by Nakajima...or visa versa...and the WWII Japanese Type 97 torpedo bomber was designated the "Kate" by the Allies

). I do not wax the upper thread, just the bobbin thread. To do this, I feed the thread through the wax pot holes and adjust the exit orifice to minimize the amount of wax without binding the bobbin winder. It is still pretty messy, so I tend to wind several bobbins at one time. I use Sellari's heatless wax, available from that company in Brownsville, Tennessee, or at industrial sewing machine outfits.

It may just be a matter of how your are adjusting the presser foot. I use Schmetz series 794 needles with "leather" points. Not sure if these are "chisel" points or not. They might be, but my supplier here in Denver, Ralph's Power Sewing Machines, calls them "leather point"

Hope this helps.

Slowhand Bob · July 07, 2007, 12:01:58 PM

Weaver lists three point styles as for leather S=chisel point, LR=twisted chisel point and D=diamond point. Tippman shipped both of my macines with the S style point but do not specifically recommend it in their manuals but Artisan shipped with the D style point and recommends it in their instructions. I am going to try some sillycone thread lube on my bobbin thread next time I work in the shop and will let you know the results. Its said that a Slowhand Bob can be a dangerous thing with a little information, so everbody might want to stay clear of the Charleston area fer a spell.

outrider · July 08, 2007, 09:26:47 AM

Howdy All:

Slowhand...I think Trailrider has hit on the problem. Are you glueing these layers prior to sewing? If so your material may be lifting because of the needle binding on the glue. more tension on the presser foot may be needed. Sounds like we all three of us are using the same design machine. I am using the Ferdco Pro-2000, which is a modified Juki 441.

I have recently had presser foot tension problems when using the holster plate. backing off the tension seems to have solved the problem. Also, the machine runs alot smoother now with the standard plate.

Also, I think part of the problem with the Aero-stitcher was in it's design and the not so friendly attitude of the customer service people at Tippman. Many of the dealers...including Leather Factory/Tandy have stopped carrying the Tippman line because of this. Word I got from the local manager....is that Leather Factory, may start building or at least selling it's own design machine.

Anyway...happy trails to all.

Slowhand Bob · July 08, 2007, 02:26:16 PM

Thanks for the input Outrider. I have advised Tippmann many times that an introductory video should accompany every machine and they have finally come out wth one. Not that Artisan has done any better, they still offer no training program for the first time machine user. It is truely a pain to get to my equipment at this time but even with the limited use there seems to be a lot of breakthroughs with all three.

My building contractor is claiming to have me ready to reopen my shop by early September and I do hope to have the sewing machine problems figured out by then. The building slowdown has not been heard about by the Charleston contractors apparently. A four month project is now approaching two years and still unfinished.

outrider · July 28, 2007, 08:29:52 AM

Howdy Slowhand:

Did you ever get your machine problem resolved? I see your located in SC. If you ever get over Tenn. (Chattanooga) way give me a hollar.

Slowhand Bob · July 29, 2007, 07:15:06 AM

Actually I have not gone into the shop since receiving your tips. I had to shift yard tools from my loading bench to the sewing area as I was tatally out of almost all ammunition. My building contractor assures me that the new storage area will be ready by months end and I can straighten out my shop for good. My welfare check will be in on the first and I hope to place an order with Artisan, to include some diamond point needles to try. I am also going to try your idea of lubing the bobbin thread, though I will try a silicone thread lube first. I will probly have to recover some ground from the lack of practice but at least we are getting some badly needed upgrades on the house.

Slowhand Bob · August 08, 2007, 09:20:31 AM

I did talk with the Artisan factory guy yesterday and ordered a few diamond point needles to try. He says that the diamond point and the chisel point will sew about the same. The two differences, reported by customers, are that the chisel point makes a slightly better looking stitch while the diamond point remains sharp a tad longer, a preference tossup. He still thinks excessively dry leather is a major factor in my problem and this would play into the conditions that I'm caught up in.

I was told something similar, concerning Tandys 'BOSS' plans, last weekend, which was in my 'rumors' post. In fairness I have come to the conclusion that many problems I experienced came from a lack of understanding and an unconscience tendency to force the machines. These are the mistakes that a mentor would have corrected on day one while a hard head like myself took months to realise the problem on my own.

I actually spent a short time in Chattanooga back in the mid to late sixties. It was my first experience with a big city and I was lost all the time but loved the mountain scenery. I felt somewhat the same when I first moved to Charleston, SC but have since become a very big fan of the area. Oh, I still get lost every time I go to down town Charleston but there is just so much history to be explored!

doublegranch · April 10, 2011, 05:49:23 PM

Quote from: Slowhand Bob on July 03, 2007, 08:55:15 AM
My love/hate affair with sewing machines has been going on for over two years now and my inventory now includes three machines. Now if my old dad was still alive, he would be the first to tell ya thet I'm not the brightest bulb in the pack but my machine problems have gone beyond that to a degree. Yes many problems are/were based on my old dawg ways but some just go beyond that. Well I solved one of them problems, thanks to one of the techs at Artisan and now I'll share what Ive got so far.

My three machines are a BOSS, an Aerostitch and the big TORO 4000 and had learned to like all of them within limitations that seemed well below those promised. I have been stuck at a limiting weight of around + or - 20ozs of leather that the machines could handle dependably without major problems. This limits one to a fairly light mainseam without fillers for sheath and holster work. When I would reach the machines limit(any one of them) it would start chattering and skipping stitches up to the point that the needles would occasionally lock and bend/break. One clue was a bit of really fine spider web cracking around each stitch hole. With needles running at over a dollar a pop this can be an expensive learning process.

Well, for some reason this seems to be a common problem that no one gets informed of, according to the tech. He pointed the finger at dry leather, a problem that can vary over such a degree as to be hard to put a finger on. I would have thought that the thread lube pot would have prevented this but he said no. As proof to his suggestion, I stacked 40+ozs of belt strapping under the needle and then lubed the needle, not he thread, a bit with some of my handsewing wax and started to sew. Sure enough I got a few beautiful stitches before chattering set in again. Running a few stitches, waxing the needle and stitching again proved that all of the machines could handle at least close to 50ozs before I stopped.

The tech suggested wetting the sewing line, caseing, before stitching heavy leather laminations. I hope to try some more sperryminting today and hope to find a more workable solution to the problem. As further info, I am told that it is not a leather quality issue and probly not related to my shop storage conditions?

Later.