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[Seth Hawkins]

 

[Long Johns Wolf]

Thanks for your comments, Seth. Many questions regarding theses Belgium made 1860 Armies cannot be answered today and it is important to bring issues into perspective. This relates to the 19th century but possibly even more to the 20th century produced guns. As we seem to becoming aware this is a field overlooked by collectors and gun students, alike.
During the 19th century they were marked "Colt Brevete" by Union d'Armes. At this point I have no clue when and at what S/N they stopped producing them around 150 years ago... I also don't know at this point in time if they re-started production in 1960 with S/N #1 or whatever number. I have no idea why there is no "Colt Brevete" or "Colt License" on the pistols from the 1960s and 1970s.
My blue/case hardened Centaure got actually 2 rebated cylinders: one plain, one with their own "Naval Scene". I have seen a few others with the same Naval scene, but most were just plain.
I am actually trying the find "survivors" of Fabriques d'Armes Unies de Liege to get first hand information. So far, no results...
Union d'Armes was a licensee of Sam Colt, not a subsidiary like the London factory. To show their affiliation with COLT the 7 founders of Union d. Armes agreed on a TM close but still different to the colt of COLT, and the came up with the centaur. The centaur is to be found where you find the COLT logo, i. e. the colt on the COLT SAA.
20th century Centaure Armies have mandatory proof marks in line with the Belgium regulations, like the Italian guns have in line with Italian regulations, etc. 2nd and 3rd gen. Colts were assembled and finished in the USA, i. e. they were "manufactured" in the USA from a legal point of view. As such proof marking was probably not mandatory in the USA, if I understand correctly, and I am happy and thankful for this flexibility.
It is my understanding the 2nd gen. Colts are actually Colt pistols, not Colt licensed pistols. Likewise the group that made the 3rd gen. Colts seem to have come to an agreement with COLT that one considers them today to be the real thing. But are they legally as are the 2nd gens.? That might be open to discussion...
I am not aware that COLT is providing letters of authenticity for any licensed guns from the 19th or 20th century. But this is something that one of our US pards might want to ask the folks in Hartford, CT.
Much more study is needed to answer all these questions, and we all know this is not going to be an easy task. I am certain that many of the questions can be answered by the Cas-City community if the knowledge of our pards and pardnerettes can be put together. That is what I am looking forward to.
Bootsie

[Long Johns Wolf]

Pic of the 2nd cylinder mentioned above, with proprietary Centaure naval scene. I like to know if other Belgium made Armies are floating around with this roll engraving.
Bootsie

[St. George]

In reviewing Sutherland and Wilson's - 'The Book of Colt Firearms' - there's a chapter devoted to the copies, titled 'Copies of Colt Percussion Firearms' - with sub-titled sections - 'The Belgian Models', the Austrian Models', and 'Confederate Copies'.

This refers to those 'original' copies, as licensed by Colt in the nineteenth century.

There was no Colt 'plant' overseas.

Colt did supply some parts - both finished and unfinished to overseas manufacturers.

To identify an authentic licensed copy as made in Belgium - look for:

COLT/BREVETE or COLT/PATENT atop the barrel and/or the cylinder, and Liege proof stamps on the breech of the barrel and the cylinder.

Any identical Colt barrel markings - such as 'ADDRESS COL SAML COLT, NEW-YORK CITY' can be considered to be part of those parts shipped to Belgium in 1853.

Fine quality workmanship is to be expected.

Apparently - there were no Model 1860 Army Colts produced during that time frame - and the book doesn't address the 1960's 'Centauri'.

At that time - taking advantage of America's Civil War Centennial - a lot of foreign-made BP revolvers made their way to these shores - none of whom had anything to do with Colt.

Second Generation reproductions 'are' considered to be actual Colt production and are serial numbered beginning at the end of the original production line, and 'letter'.

The 'Signature Series' will not 'letter' to the Colt factory.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[rifle]

If copies of autherntic Colts are really copies then why don't they have "progressive rifling"? I was told the originals had the progressive rifling. Like the Rifling in the Pietta "Shooters Model" Remington. Also...if there were no 1860's Colts Armies made by the Belgians during the Civil War how can the Belgian "1960's" Colt Armies be made on the original Belgian machinery? The Centennials have parts interchangable with original Colts and all. Are they just a real good copy not made on some sort of original machinery used to make guns for Colt during the Civil War? Well...anyway it's hashed out I'd say the Belgian Colt Centennial is a fine speciman of a cap&baller better made than an Italian Colt. Made with better steel. The Belgian Colt I had sent to Charlie had the arbor bottomed correctly in the barrels arbor hole. That is a big plus with a cap&baller. Uberti doesn't do that with their guns. Pietta does. Makes Piettas more like originals and more sound. The 2nd and 3rd generation Colts don't have the "bottomed arbor" if I remember correctly. If they were made like originals they would have. If they are made like Uberti Italian clones they wouldn't have the bottomed arbor. Are the 2nd and 3rd generation Colts lparts interchangable with original parts? Don't remember. In my opinion the Belgian Centennial is more like an original Colt than the 2nd and 3rd generation Colts that are,in name at least,real Colts. Side note......I hear that the Ubertis made at the new plant are improved. What are the improvements? I bought a new 1851 Uberti barrel that measures .369 in the grooves and a new Uberti cylinder that measures .371 in the chambers if I'm remembering correctly. That would seem to be an improvement over the under sized chambers of the Italian Ubertis. I've noticed the new 1851 Navy barrel I bought had the arbor hole more snug to the arbor than previous barrels I've bought. That's an improvement. I've noticed the new Walker hands fit the new hammers more precisely too. The chamber throats of the new Cattleman's I've measured are actually small,if I remember right, at something like .449. Didn't measure the barrels in the gun store. 

[Long Johns Wolf]

Rifle: the subject is getting hot. FWIW Sam Colt liked to experiment and was always looking for ways to improve his products, i. e. you will find Colt 1960 Armies with right, left as well as progessive twist.
My preliminary studies on the Belgians indicate they made Navies during the 19th century...Bearing that in mind and the comments from those 2 German articles from 1971 and 1973 regarding "restarting the old machinery in 1960" some few adjustments to those machines were probably necessary to do the "1960 New Model".
Those articles mentioned the hard steel used by the Belgium, compared to the Italian replicas of the early 1970s.
We need someone from the Belgian manufacturer to talk to, to have a primary source of information. I have written to their last known address in Liege, and I have written to everybody in the German language area who ever commented on those Centaures in gun journals and C&B forums, lets x fingers that we get useful replies...
Bootsie

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

Seth,
Hope this helps a bit. There are lots of stories about the 2nd and 3rd Gen Colt's and most are just that!  Stories or Urban Myths.

I have 2 2nd Gen Colt Navies and can say this. The Colt 1851 Navy S/N in 1873 when they were discontinued,were far and away HIGHER then the S/N on my two Colts! The S/N's were NOT a continuation, at least with the 1851 Colt Navy's. Maybe some other models? Perhaps, I do not have any and haven't checked the numbers at PROOFHOUSE.COM the have the Colt model S/N and the years for 1st Gen and Send Gen colts.

Second Gen Colts will Letter. 3rd Gens will not, Second Gens were BUILT in the Colt Factory from Castings obtained from Uberti thru Val Forgett, and later Lou Imperato(sic), (see Below), not merely passed thru the Colt Factory and QC'd like the 3rd Gens. were.

This is from The Bluebook Of modern Blackpowder Arms  4th edition by John Allen and Dennis Adler.

COLT´S MANUFACTURING COMPANY, INC. 
Current firearms manufacturer with headquarters located in West Hartford, CT.
Colt´s Manufacturing Company, Inc. is the previous manufacturer of 2nd Generation Colt percussion revolvers located in Hartford, CT. Colt used subcontractors to supply rough castings for the manufacture of these black powder pistols. Throughout the production years 1971-1982, these rough castings were produced in Italy and the reproductions were completed in the United States. Initially, Val Forgett and Navy Arms provided these parts/components during 1971-73. Lou Imperato supplied these parts from 1974-76. In both instances, these revolvers were assembled and finished in Colt´s facilities in Connecticut. Finally, from 1978-1982, Colt subcontracted both parts procurement and final production to Lou Imperato and Iver Johnson Arms in Middlesex, NJ. Colt percussion revolvers produced by Iver Johnson had frames, center pins, nipples, and screws manufactured in the United States. In all instances, these revolvers were manufactured in accordance with Colt´s strict specifications and quality control. Additionally, Colt´s performed final inspection for all models. All percussion models manufactured from 1971 through 1982, either by Colt or its subcontractor, are regarded as authentic Colt pistols and not Italian replicas.
The Colt Custom Shop also produced a limited number of special editions through the early 1990s from 2nd Generation production inventory. (Colt 2nd Generation models in the white are still known to exist.)
Please refer to Colt Blackpowder Reproductions & Replicas – A Collector´s & Shooter´s Guide for additional color pictures of the 2nd Generation Colt Percussion Revolver makes and models listed below. Second Generation Colts can be found on pages 12 through 22, and pages 78, 82, and 83.

COLT BLACKPOWDER ARMS CO.
Previous manufacturer and retailer of 3rd Generation Colt Black Powder pistols and muskets located in Brooklyn, NY 1994-2002.
All 3rd Generation Colt blackpowder models are also referred to as Signature Series Models.
A reprise of the original Colt Blackpowder line, along with historic models not offered in the 2nd Generation, and a new series of Commemoratives, each model (with the exception of the Heirloom Tiffany 1860 Army and 1842 Texas Paterson) bears the Sam Colt signature on the backstrap. These 3rd Generation models were manufactured under an authorized licensing agreement with Colt Firearms by Colt Blackpowder Arms Company – the same company (and many of the same craftsmen) responsible for the 2nd Generation Colt revolvers. Although parts for the Signature Series were cast in Italy, they were fully assembled and hand finished in the United States using the proprietary Colt formulas for bluing and color case hardening.
Colt Blackpowder Arms Company Signature Series revolvers are regarded as authentic Colt pistols. The 3rd Generation models have original Colt markings, including the barrel address and serial number stampings. There are no foreign proof marks on these authentic Colt models.

Bootsie,
My First (I got it on Auction Arms) Belgian Colt cylinder has the Naval scene with the word Centennial in the space reserved for the S/N on the cylinder. I suspect that your's might say this or Centaure. I haven't recieved the Belgian Colt from Rifle yet(tomorrow I hope!), So I cannot comment if, or not, it has the Naval Scene on the Cylinder. I'm hoping it does.

Rifle,
Does the Belgian Colt you sent me have the engraving on the cylinder?

[W.T.]

Pic of the 2nd cylinder mentioned above, with proprietary Centaure naval scene. I like to know if other Belgium made Armies are floating around with this roll engraving.
Bootsie

Bootsie, my #2420 has the Naval scene

[Long Johns Wolf]

W.T. & Halfway Creek Charlie: here is another view of the Centaure Naval Scene. #2420 is pretty early.
I wonder if there are any other, different factory roll engravings on Centaures out there?
I guess it is prudent now to design a checklist to document the variations of the Belgium Colts. Any suggestions what should be on that list?
Bootsie

[W.T.]

Bootsie, 2420's Naval scene is identical to yours.  A matrix chart of variant features is an excellent idea.

If I have followed the story correctly (from various threads here and elsewhere):

- In the mid-19th Century, Sam Colt licensed a Belgian company (formed from a DWM-like consortium of seven arms makers) to produce 'authorized' copies of the M1851 Navy revolver;

- that same company, which continued to exist at least through the 1970s, began in 1960 to produce a "centennial anniversary" copy of the M1860 Army revolver (though they had not produced an M1860 in the 19th Century) that was superior in manufacture and materials to the copies made by Italian companies of that and this time, and whose specifications matched the original 60 Army in most details;

- Variants of the 1960 Centennial exist in the presence/lack of the 'Naval' roll engraving, use of stainless steel. and address-line markings (mine has the name of the Chicago importer, but is otherwise identical in markings and proofs to Bootsie's);

- Quality began to fall off toward the end of the production run in the 1970s.  To date, it has not been possible to correlate serials numbers to year of manufacture.

Whether the "Centennial" should properly be termed a "reproduction", "authorized/licensed copy", or "reissue" would seem to be dependant on the terms of Colt's original contract with the Belgians, and any amendments made to it:

- did Colt authorize production only of the M1851?

- when and under what conditions did the original contract and any amendments expire?

Bootsie continues to try and track down people associated with the Belgian outfit to help fill in the blanks.  Wonder if Colt still has records from that time?  Details of the original contract would be a real boon.

In any event, the recent examination by Rifle of the materials and quality of fit of the examples he's been working with seem to confirm their reputation for superiority.  As more information becomes available, you guys oughta think about collaboration on an article.


Meanwhile, down in the shop, 2420 has one stuck nipple that continues to soak in diesel fuel in hopes of breaking it free...

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

Well for sure the different markings of the naval scene. There's at least two different markins in the S/N space. Mine is CENTENNIAL
Yours is NEW MODEL 44. Does yours have Centennial on the top of the bbl or Centaur trade mark?

I'm guessing that W.T.'s is marked like mine. Maybe different for import to USA?

Looks like we will need a list of variations for sure.

I should have the one I got from Rifle today.

W.T. Does yours read New Model 44 on the cylinder between the Naval Scene?

[Long Johns Wolf]

Barrel marking of my blue/case hardened pistol #4079.
Bootsie

[Long Johns Wolf]

Barrel marking of my stainless pistol #12307.
Bootsie

[W.T.]

W.T. Does yours read New Model 44 on the cylinder between the Naval Scene?

Yep: "New Model 44" sideways on the cylinder.

Bbl reads: "1960 New Model Army"  CENTENNIAL Trade Mark   Chicago U.S.A. in that specific order; notice the different order on Bootsie's

Frame has the centaur logo in the right place.

[St. George]

The 'licensed' Belgian makers were:

Renotte-Desart
P.G. Fagard
Harar
Gilles Decourtis
Coliel Freres
Renkin Freres
Jaques Bayard
Guillaume Mariette
P. Genotte

'Possible' licensed makers were:

N. Gilon
L. Gahye

Of these - Renotte-Desart, P.J. Fagard and Harar were authorized to supply the trade with partially-manufactured parts - with final assembly to be done by individual shops, with N. Gilon seeming to be the most prolific - due to his marking being seen most often.

Unlicensed, infringment manufcturers appear to have out-numbered licensed ones.

On February 26, 1853 - this notice appeared in the 'New York Herald':

"Colt's Pistols, Notice - Dealers in firearms are hereby notified thatimitations of Colt's arms manufactured in Europe, and closely resembling the genuine are now imported into the U.S. for sale.  A sale of any such arm would be an infringment of Col. Colt's patents and as the spurious are offered for genuine Colt's Pistols, this notice is given to put dealers and purchasers on their guard.  Any person found importing or selling such arms or any other made in violation of Col. Colt's patents will be prosecuted.  

Samuel Colt."

in 1853 - M. Devos-Sera, of Liege, was supplied with a stamp - 'COLT/BREVETE' - and each revolver paid a 10-Franc royalty, and was proof-stamped.

They were known to've proofed revolvers that didn't meet the rather stringent inspection standards - upon payment of the fee.

Colt did not intend for these revolvers to be sold outside of Europe.

Devos-Sera was replaced by J. Samthill.

Colt-made parts went to the following - but there were never large quantities shipped:

Ancion & Co.
Pirlot Freres
Colette
Dandoy
Hanquet
Drisson & Co.
Petry
Francotte
Lemille
Renkin Freres

The Dragoon, Pocket Model and Navy revolvers were manufactured.

It's highly doubtful that any original machinery would survive the Franco-Prussian War, World War I and World War II - to be resurrected to produce the replica - but stranger things have happened, and the American Civil War Centenial offered the chance for serious profit.

The list comes from 'The Book of Colt Firearms' - by Sutherland and Wilson - long considered to be the 'bible' of the serious Colt collector.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Long Johns Wolf]

Hope this one is not getting controversal. FWIW the German article from 1971 written by E. Modrau is naming the Belgian lawyer Davos-Sera representing Sam Colt's interest til April 1853. For reasons unknowns today this cooperation was terminated. Col. Colt then worked with Brussel's lawyer J. Sainthill. When Colt visited Liege/Belgium in April 1853 (!) Sainthill arranged the meeting with the 7 "founding fathers", namely Ancion & Co., Collette, Darrdoy, Drissur & Co., Hanquett, Petry, Pirlot Bros. A licensing agreement was reached towards the end of April 1853 and the parties agreed on their logo, the centaur.
These 7 names are more or less identical with those of St. George's second list.
In 1971 the factory was led (owned?) by the cousins Paul & Albert Hanquet (see identical name above) and managed by "secretary" Roger Vryens who provided Modrau with the background information for his article. At that time (1971) the sign-board of the company read
FABRIQUES D'ARMES UNIES DE LIÉGE
ANCIENNES FIRMES
FABRIQUES D'ARMES DE LIÉGE
FERDINAND HANQUET
I do not know if US authors R. Q. Sutherland & R. L. Wilson had access to the Modrau-article of 1971 and the other one of H. J. Stammel from 1973, or talked to R. Vryens, to get additional views and insight regarding the COLT BREVETE's, or a different perspective.
Bootsie

[St. George]

As to whether Sutheland and Wilson knew of those articles - it's hard to say, without talking to Wilson - and he's incarcerated...

At the time of preparation and publication, though - if those articles saw print in the antique firearms publications of the time - it's hard to imagine them not knowing about them, since it's a fairly small world.

On the other hand - their mission was to produce their book on 'specifically' Colt products and there's every chance that they didn't view the overseas-made guns as worthy of much mention.

As Time moves on - more and more information comes to light, when researching formerly 'obscure' facts - witness the excellent books on Colt Conversions and Remington Conversions - as well as on Merwin, Hulberts, and now, Bulldogs.

Back in the 1960's - '70's - no one really cared about those guns - a fact that McDowell addresses in his Introduction.

Like surplus military firearms - they weren't collected by the 'serious' gun collectors of the era - and were left to those who didn't have much buying power.

Things surely have changed, but that dismissive attitude shown by those 'older' guys made those 'younger' ones do serious research on their subjects, and led to some great information coming to light...

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

OK I have both Belgian Colts here now and the one from Rifle is ACES! Very good condition(I thought the other one was great but this one is better. and different than the later made gun too.
Here are the differences.

Early gun S/N 2999 has CENTENNIAL trademark "1960 NEW MODEL ARMY in that order muzzle to breech. Left side of bbl at breech is CAL 44 *D The sideways diamond lollipop (more so looking than a sideways tree)(crown)over R (proofmark). Naval scene with Centennial in S/N panel On cylinder. Centaur figure in place of Colt's Patent on left frame, followed by *D The sidewaysdiamond Lollipop. S/N's where they are on Colt's, Made in Belgium on the Bottom of the backstrap, which is cut for the shoulder stock. Frame cut for Shoulder stock also. 3 screw frame

Later Gun S/N 18408 reads muzzle to breech "1960 NEW MODEL ARMY" CENTENNIAL trademark sideways Diamond Lollipop.
Left side bbl at breech, sideways lollipop. Cylinder with Naval scene, with CENTENNIAL in the S/N panel, Centaur Stamp in place of Colt's patent on left frame and the now infamous sideways lollipop near the bolt screw., s/n'd where they are on Colt's, made in Belgium on bottom of backstrap (NOT CUT FOR SHOULDER STOCK!) Frame is cut for stock. 3 screw frame

I'll take some pictures later. i'm bushed, Got 2 other pistols in today, plus picking up the henry and shooting the bejeebers out of it(see Henry Post)

[Pettifogger]

I thought I have one of these things.  I went and dug it out of the closet.  The barrel reads "1960 New Model Army".  (The quote marks are on the barrel.)  Centennial isn't on the gun anywhere.  It has no cylinder scene.  The serial number is 43XX.  The side of the barrel says CAL. 44 and has a star, a sideways U, an arrow looking symbol, and a crown over R sideways.  The frame has the Centaur followed by the star, sideways U, and arrow symbol.  The bottom of the grip strap reads Made In Belgium.

[Long Johns Wolf]

Pettifogger, yours certainly seems to be a Centaure, with different barrel marking. Can you share pics?
As posted somewhere else over here I have seen more Centaures with the rebated but plain cylinder as with the naval scene. The majority of the latter might have been shipped to the USA?! Halfway Creek Charlie's 2 pistols got the naval scene as does W.T.'s.
Bootsie