Let's Talk Primers

[Fox Creek Kid]

Primers and real BP are an interesting duo per my experiences. I have always used CCI Magnum Large Pistol primers since I read Mike Venturino's test many years back with various BP's and different primers in revolvers and this primer shone above all others. My own testing on paper gave the same results as his against WW, Rem. & Fed. primers. I loaded 5 or 6 different cartridges with a different brand of BP and different granulations and tested away. Recently a buddy gave me an old brick CCI LP Regular primers so I thought I'd test some loads at 10 yds. on paper using the aforementioned testing method. I tried GOEX FFg Regular & Express, Swiss FFg, Schuetzen FFg & FFFg. Finally I tested a 50/50 mix by volume of Swiss FFFg & GOEX FFg. Interestingly, they all shot ragged holes at 10 yds. (average CAS distance). With the magnum primers GOEX FFg always outshot other combos but these CCI Reg. primers did great with ALL powder types. Just goes to show you never know until you try. It's definitely worth it for everyone to test their respective guns with different combinations on paper as even tightening a group an inch could mean the difference in a hit or miss someday. Bear in mind this was ONE gun, a .44 Colt Uberti 8" RM and all loads were a level 1.6 cc scoop of BP.

[Adirondack Jack]

Except for those loads specifying magnum or SP primers, CCI LP is all I use in .44, .45, .50-70 and Mag Tech 12  GA.  Using BP, subs or smokeless, they always go "bang" and will return excellent groups if properly loaded.

[Cuts Crooked]

Hoookay.

Well here's an interesting little thing I just discovered.

As Fox Creek may recall I had a few misfires with my 92 at a recent match. I noticed that all of the rounds that misfired appeared to have a LOW primer situation I also noted that each of the 'failure to fire' rounds were BHA headstamps. None of my other headstamps gave me any failures to fire. And they were all loaded with CCI magnum primers.

Last week I went through my ammo and sorted out all of the BHA headstamps. Took them to the range and began running them through the Rossi. Almost all of them failed to fire...except for twelve rounds that had Winchester primers!?!?! I then ran the 'failure to fire' rounds through my Remmie and they all fired in it.

Lessons learned: My Rossi doesn't like CCI primers when combined with Black Hills brass. Also BHA brass appears to have slightly deeper primer pockets than WW or RP brass....and my Remmies will fire anything I stuff in 'em!

[Fox Creek Kid]

Cuts, BHA (Black Hills Ammunition) is loaded in Starline brass. I had some light hits in the past with some brass but ALL were ones that I had used a primer pocket uniformer on. The uniformer is a wonderful tool but the problem with revolvers is that out of the chute they have excess headspace (in order to be able to revolve in the cylinder) and couple this with rim thickness variations you can get light hits. I only use the uniformer for rifle primer pockets now. Sounds like you had a bad lot of brass there Cuts, or maybe you "limp wristed" your rifle! 

[rickk]

Failure to fire due to light hits not setting of the primer can usually be fixed by switching to Federal brand primers. They are the softest of any of the brands. Guns with lightened hammer springs will often only work with Federals.

As far a standard verses Magnum, I personaly almost only use Magnums. That is not because all my loads need them, but that some do and I don't bother keeping large quantities of both around. I buy Federal Magnum primers in 5000 primer cases to get a good price and try to stick with them almost exclusively (There are exceptions).

Magnum primers are an absolute must have in two conditions. Condition one with when using "ball powder", such as H110 or W231. Those powders are very difficult to ignite, and you will get hangfires and misfires without magnum primers and a tight bullet crimp. Condition two is when using light loads in big cases, like 4.5 grains of unique in a 44 magnum. Without the magnum primers the ignition becomes very erratic and accuracy really suffers.

[Noz]

I use only CCI 350s for all applications. BP, Hot loads and cowboy smokeless.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Magnum primers are an absolute must have in two conditions. Condition one with when using "ball powder", such as H110 or W231. Those powders are very difficult to ignite, and you will get hangfires and misfires without magnum primers and a tight bullet crimp. Condition two is when using light loads in big cases, like 4.5 grains of unique in a 44 magnum. Without the magnum primers the ignition becomes very erratic and accuracy really suffers

Uhhh, rickk, this is the Darksider's Den and not for smokeless powder. 

[Dick Dastardly]

FWIW, I've had almost NO failures to fire in any of my SASS ammo.  But then, ALL my hammer springs are stock factory issue.  I load mostly CCI primers cuz they cost slightly less and always seem to be available from Recobs.

In factory ammo I've had a few failures to fire in Remington ammo.  One was in 7mm-08 and it cost me a nice buck.

DD-DLoS

[rickk]

Yup, I know we are talkin BP, but the two points I was trying to make I believe are still valid.

Federals are really easy to set off... a cure for lighter firing pin hits,  and while Magnum primers are not needed except for very small charges in large cases or powder heavily coated with retardent to control peak pressure (neither applying to a typical BP load), there is probably no real good reason why one could not use them with BP. Either regular or Magnum should be fine.

[w44wcf]

Using the original 21.5 gr. b.p. .38 Special load in my 1894 Marlin Cowboy .357 (24") standard small pistol primers gave the better accuracy results. I was using Swiss 3F powder.  I haven't worked with Goex or Schutzen yet in this rifle. 

In the .44-40 ('73 WIn.) & .45 Colt (1894 Marlin Cowboy), magnum primers seem to work better with Goex while standard Rem 2 1/2 and CCI300's work better with Swiss.
I recently bought 1,000 Fed 150's to give those a try.

Interestingly, up until the late 1920's the .44-40 used small primers, as did the .38-40 and some .45 Colts.  I have some early .44 W.C.F. W.R.A. CO. cases that I sometimes use with b.p. and they give very good accuracy with Swiss.     

There is a target illustration in an 1870's Winchester catalog showing 30 consecutive shots inside a 4" circle at 110 yards, with 20 of the shots inside 3".  Ammuniton was factory WInchester .44 W.C.F. using small primers. Of course the the b.p. then is different than the b.p. produced in the US today.

w44wcf       

[fourfingersofdeath]

Cuts, BHA (Black Hills Ammunition) is loaded in Starline brass. I had some light hits in the past with some brass but ALL were ones that I had used a primer pocket uniformer on. The uniformer is a wonderful tool but the problem with revolvers is that out of the chute they have excess headspace (in order to be able to revolve in the cylinder) and couple this with rim thickness variations you can get light hits. I only use the uniformer for rifle primer pockets now. Sounds like you had a bad lot of brass there Cuts, or maybe you "limp wristed" your rifle! 

Boy, primer pocket uniforming on pistol brass for realitively short range largish targets is sorta like self flagellation as far as I'm concerned Mick.

[Will Ketchum]

I use a Lee Auto Prime for priming all my cases.  Richard Lee of Lee Precision emphatically warns against using Federal primers in his priming tools because they are too sensitive and likely to detonate.  A friend of mine had that very thing happen when he disregarded the warning.  He had pieces of plastic all over his basement but fortunately wasn't hurt very bad..  I no longer use Federal primers.  I have had great luck with CCI but Like Dick I use either stock springs or just slightly lighter.

Will Ketchum

[rickk]

A different solution might be to not use the Lee auto-prime.

The same concept is used on the Lee Pro-1000 turret press. I had one chain detonate with only 10 primers in it. While I had plastic and metal shrapnel in my face, there was no permenant damage. I was lucky that the tray was near empty instead of near full.

I quickly dumped the near new presses for $25 each (I had 2 of them) and replaced them with Dillon RL550's. The Dillon Primer feeded is infinitely safer. Oddly enough, just about everyone except for Lee encases their primers in a tube that points away from the operator, and separates the primer being pressed in from the rest of the primers. The Lee feeder puts the entire supply right next to the one being pressed in, and aims the entire plastic primer tray at the operator's face.

[Will Ketchum]

A different solution might be to not use the Lee auto-prime.

The same concept is used on the Lee Pro-1000 turret press. I had one chain detonate with only 10 primers in it. While I had plastic and metal shrapnel in my face, there was no permanent damage. I was lucky that the tray was near empty instead of near full.

I quickly dumped the near new presses for $25 each (I had 2 of them) and replaced them with Dillon RL550's. The Dillon Primer feeded is infinitely safer. Oddly enough, just about everyone except for Lee encases their primers in a tube that points away from the operator, and separates the primer being pressed in from the rest of the primers. The Lee feeder puts the entire supply right next to the one being pressed in, and aims the entire plastic primer tray at the operator's face.

Well I guess we all have to pick our own poison.  About 35 years ago my brother in law was teaching me to use my new Rockchucker.  We were using the tube primer very much like the one on the 550B.  about the 3rd round we had a primer tube detonation which scared the crab out of me .  That is when I bought my first Auto Prime.  I have used one ever since until I won a Dillon 550B at a friends of the NRA banquet.  The first couple of years I used the priming system provided but I was never comfortable.  I came up with another solution.  I decap and size on a single stage press.  Then I tumble my brass and inspect it for defects.  I prime the case by hand either with a Lee Auto Prime or an RCBS strip primer.  I moved the powder measure and belling die to the first station, put a RCBS Lockout die at 2, seat the bullet at 3 and have a Lee factory Crimp die at 4.  My 15 year old grandson normally decaps and resizes my brass and even primes most of it.  I have bins of primed brass for my various calibers and just grab what I need when it gets time to reload.  I realize this might seem convoluted to some but it works for me.  When I was priming on the Dillon I sometimes was too tentative and failed to remove the old primer.  I would find a couple or loaded rounds in every couple hundred.  I no longer have that and haven't ever had a high primer with the Auto Prime.  Something most people who prime on the press can't say.  Oh and the primers I was using when the darn tube exploded...I'm not sure but they were either Remington or Federals.

Will Ketchum

[rickk]

Will, when the Dillon primer tube went off, whcih direction did the stuff go in? It is designed to go UP if something goes wrong, but I have never heard of a tube going off so I don't know for sure.

Any idea how it went off? The primer being inserted is quite a ways from the ret of the tube during the insertion process.

Rick

[Will Ketchum]

It was a RCBS tube.  It went straight up but since we were in the basement with it's low ceiling we had plenty of stuff hit us.  I have since heard of several primer tube detonations but only 2, including yours with the Lee system.  Granted there are many more tube systems in use so the chances are greater.   I just like the control the hand primer gives me.  I don't fault anyone who chooses another method, but nearly everyone I know that primes on the press experiences at least an occasional high primer.  I often work the loading table at CAS events.  And see this all the time.  I also see people spin their cylinders around to check for a high primer before bringing the empty chamber under the hammer.  I have never had to do this since I have never had a high primer.

You use Federal primers if you want.  Me I'll stick with CCIs

Will Ketchum

[rickk]

For what it's wroth, I occationally use an RCBS primer seater. It has a much more precise feel to it than the Lee primer seater (Yes, I had a Lee hand primer as well). There is a cam in it that gives lots of leverage, but give goot feedbacl to the user as well. I use it when I am loading for my .308 benchrest gun.

RCBS makes an auto-feed version of it (tube feed), which I don't have.

The only thing that I have left from teh Lee primer seater is the flipper tray which, amazingly enough, works better than much fancier trays.

[Wills Point Pete]

 I only use the RCBS hand priming tool to prime cases. It is very much like the Lee except it uses real shellholders and has that light strip of metal between the primer I'm squeezing in and the ones on the tray.
For CAS I use the cheapest primers I can find, except for in my Mag Tech brass shotshells. I had a slew of those PMC primers pop while I was priming the case, Remington and Winchesters don't do that. Nobody has ever been injured with those primers popping but, since I do it by hand with a socket extension and a plastic mallet, it is disconcerting.