new vaquero soup-up

[andy42s]

hello,
I'm new to cas, and I have recently purchased a ruger new vaquero. I'm interested in hopping it up a little bit. I have read on posts elsewhere about spring kits and stuff like that. I think they were wolf springs or something. I can't really remember. Also a base bin from some company. If anyone could suggest what some common basic alterations to this revolver are, it would be appreciated. thanks

[Capt. Augustus]

When I got my new vaquero's I bought Wolff springs, which were lighter than the factory's 17# springs.  They lasted a year, then I noticed all of a sudden that I'd have a failure to fire.  All that time I had been using Winchester primers with no problem.  I dug up the original springs and reinstalled them,  Now, they are popping primers every time.

[Wild Ben Raymond]

Howdy! I'm new to ruger's also but have found out what to do from others & my own idea's. First get them sighted in with the load you want to use, then adjust the sight accordingly. I put in the 14 lb wolf spring kits from brownells then ordered the belt mountain base pins to improve accerracy and also has a lighter pin plunger spring in the end resting against the transfer-bar so now the lighter hammer spring has less resistance to overcome. I then using the method given from the web site below bent the trigger spring to lighten the trigger pull and reduce trigger creep. Also, using a dremmel tool I reduced the sear on the hammer to a height of about .015 of an inch. This was also done to reduce trigger creep, so now I have a nice crisp 1 1/2 pound trigger pull. Another thing I did was to stone out all the channels in side the frame where the hand, transfer bar & the hammer move. Polished the sides of the hammer too. WBR
http://www.cylindersmith.com/triggerspring.html
Belt mountain phone number is 406-388-1396

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Good Lord, with all due respect, please do not alter the sear engagement of the full cock notch of the hammer unless you know EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING! This kind of advise on a public forum really gives me the willies. Notice that website clearly says to leave this to a person competent at this task. No disrespect meant to Wild Bill Raymond, or his skills with a Dremel tool, but it is just too scary for me to think of the average kitchen table gunsmith attempting to work on the full cock notch of a hammer. A gun can be made unsafe with just a few swipes of a file if you don't know exactly what you are doing. A dremel tool works so fast and removes metal so quickly it could easily completely ruin the part in seconds, as well as over heat the steel if the user is not carefull. If the steel gets too hot, it can ruin the temper and make the steel soft and wear faster. By the way, the sear is the tip of the trigger, the notch it fits into on the hammer is the full cock notch. Trigger creep is the amount of free travel the trigger has before it releases the hammer. Trigger pull is the amount of force required to pull the trigger far enough to release the hammer. The two are not the same. It is completely possible to have a light trigger pull and a lot of creep, it is also possible to have a heavy trigger pull and no perceptable creep.

Back on subject now.

One of the little known benefits of changing the hammer spring for a lighter spring is that it also tends to lighten the percieved trigger pull too. This is because when the full cock notch of the hammer is pressing down on the top of the sear with less force, there is less friction for the trigger to have to overcome as it is dragged out of the full cock notch. I have changed out the hammer springs in all of my 'old model' Vaqueros and replaced the trigger springs, and gotten their trigger pulls right down to 2 1/2 pounds, which is right where I like it.

The trigger pulls on Mrs Johnson's New Vaqueros were very stiff from the factory. I changed out the hammer springs and got the trigger pull down around 4 pounds. She is very comfortable with that. I did not remove any metal from the full cock notches, they still have a bit of creep in them. If I decide to remove the creep, I will use the Power Custom jig and a hard stone.

[Wild Ben Raymond]

Driftwood, I was just telling the man what I did, and I assume he's an adult and can do what he wants to with the information that's given. And yes a dremmel tool can remove a lot of metal in a hurry but if you get the polishing kit that come's with that red polishing compound, it also comes with 2 gray looking wheels. These are very fine polishing stones and at a low setting on the dremmel tool you can work it over the sear engagement on the hammer with light pressure and not worry about taking to much off. You would have to apply a bit of pressure to over do it. I've taken mine apart several times going over it lightly, reassembling it and checking it by feel & with a trigger gage, to get it where I wanted it.
When folks ask for help with their guns here on the wire, they are either wanting to know where to find a gunsmith to work on their guns or are wanting to do it them selfs to save money. I figure if I can learn to do it myself the better, and yes I gotten bad advice before and had to buy replacement parts. If I had taken to much off the hammer sear engagement, it would have not been the end of the world, just would have had to order a new hammer from ruger. So just a word of advice; if you use someone's, anyone's suggestion here, proceed at your own risk! WBR

[andy42s]

Thanks guys for the advice. I probably won't do anything with the hammer, but I will stone all the metal-to-metal stuff. Is replacing the base pin really worth it? I saw them for around $30 I think, which doesn't seem too expensive, but does it improve the accuracy that much? It seems like it wouldn't affect it enough for hitting big targets at relatively close range. Also I heard about replacing the base pin retaining spring with a stronger one. Do they frequently fall out or something like that? Thanks for helping out a novice

[Delmonico]

I will add this for anyone who does any trigger work or has it done.  I was taught when done to do a rubber mallet test.  With the gun empty, cock it and test the gun by hitting it with a rubber mallet a whole lot with fairly strong blows.  If it falls even once you messed up.

Aso as for lightneing springs, if it won't fire every brand of primer, it ain't right.  I think Steve (WBR) has handled my Ruger Single-Six 32 amg which is not a CAS gun but a field gun, it has a 1 pound pull, no creep and will fire every small rifle primer.  If mine will fire these that are used in heavy field loads sometimes in 32 mag, then there is no reason one won't fire every brand of pistol primers, anything less is a broken gun.  An opinion that sometimes gets me in trouble, so be it.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

The Belt Mountain replacement pins were originally developed to keep cylinder base pins from jumping forward from heavy recoil. Yes, they are made to tighter tollerances than the OEM pins, but the original intent behind them was to latch more securely in the frame so they would not jump forward. The Belt Mountain pins are brought to final diameter by centerless grinding, they are not cut to final diameter on a lathe. Centerless grinding is an extremely accurate way to make a pin. I suppose the more precise line up would make the revolver slightly more accurate, but frankly, the Belt Mountain pins are only about .001 larger in diameter than stock pins, so any improvement in accuracy would have to be very slight. I'm certainly not a good enough shot to be able to take advantage of it.

With Rugers, the most common problem is the cylinder base pin sometimes jumps forward under heavy recoil. There is a spring plunger at the rear of the pin. Its purpose is to put back pressure on the transfer bar as the transfer bar rises when the hammer is cocked. If the pin jumps forward a little bit, the spring plunger can no longer apply any back pressure to the transfer bar, and the transer bar can easily rise up and jam under the firing pin. When this happens, you can't bring the hammer to full cock. Incidentally, Colt pins can jump forward too. They don't have a transfer bar, the gun keeps firing until the pin falls out and you lose it in the grass.

There are basically 3 fixes to pins jumping forward under recoil. One is to put stronger springs in the cross latch. The second is to replace it with a Belt Mountain pin. The third is to fit the pin better to the latch. I have used a combination of fixes 2 & 3 on many of my guns, Rugers, Colts, and clones. I did replace the pins on my 45 Cal 'old model' Rugers with Belt Mountain pins, and fitted the pins to the latches a little bit better. Mrs Johnson's New Vaqueros only get shot with light 38 Sp loads and the original pins have not been a problem. If you decide to buy the Belt Mountain pins, I advise against buying the ones with the little tiny set screws. It is easy to over tighted the set screw just a bit too much, which will cause the pin to bend ever so slightly. This causes the cylinder to bind.

By the way, be careful when removing the cylinders from your New Model Vaqueros. With the 'old models' Ruger designed the pin long enough that you could not remove it from the gun without removing the ejector housing. With the New Models, they mimicked the shorter pins of a Colt, and you can remove them and loose them if you don't pay attention to where you put them down.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

Personally, I'm not comfortable with any trigger pull under 2 1/2 pounds, but that's just me.

Be carefull with the rubber mallet idea. You might break something. Rugers are tough as hell, and you probably won't break anything with the rubber mallet. I have a 100 year old hammered double shotgun and I broke the full cock notch right off one of the hammers just by pushing it forward a little bit too hard with my thumb. Happy Trails had to weld up the hammer and recut the notch for me. I wouldn't try that trick with a Colt or a clone either, the cross section of the sear is very delicate and I would be afraid of snapping the tip right off. I prefer to put the hammer at full cock, making sure of course the gun is empty, and give the butt a good thump or two on something solid like a heavy bench or a wood floor.

P.S. If you decide to reduce the depth of the full cock notch on a Colt or a clone, or most any gun that has either a half cock notch or a 'safety cock' notch, be sure you chamfer the overhanging lips of those notches too. Other wise, the sear will tick the over hanging lips everytime the hammer rotates. That is because the sear is no longer travelling as far to clear them, and they strike it everytime the hammer falls. Eventually something will break. I had to replace the hammer and trigger on my '73 when I bought it used. The kitchen table gunsmith did not know that. He reduced the depth of the shelf only on the full cock notch. Eventually the gun became totally unsafe, the hammer would fall just from the vibration of closing the lever. He had cut through the case hardening and exposed the softer steel underneath. Then the 'safety cock' notch broke off completely. I had to then undo the work the kitchen table smith had done by replacing the broken hammer and trigger.

[Delmonico]

Good advice DJ.  As for trigger I would never work over any old gun for trigger pull, most don't really need it and parts can be hard to find for some of them.  For Cas-Shooting I would not recomend anyone who is anything but a well seasoned shooter to even think about any kind of a real light pull.  I do consider my friend WBR one such as that, a well seasoned shooter who knows what he is doing.  The Ruger of mine is a field carry gun and I do not ever let anyone else shoot it who has not dry fired it a few times and if they make any comments about it being to light, they don't get to.  I am in the situation that because of hand strength issues because of injuries to tendons I need a light trigger and of course it needs to be safe also.  But I also use it a a varmint gun out to 100 yards or so.  No Prairie Poodle or Woodchuck is safe from me at that distance.

Light triggers are not something everyone needs, a light trigger will not make up for lack of practice and load developement.  That is one nice thing about tuning up a Ruger, you don't have to worry about the other notch using stock parts and there is never any doubt about the metal quality and removing a shallow case hardening, another thought on other guns. 

[Wild Ben Raymond]

Howdy! again, to detemine if you need belt mountain over sized base pins is to just check them with a calibers or micrometer. I replaced both of mine but probably could have got buy with just one, as the one in that gun measured .246 dia. and would not hold a 2 inch group at 10 yards. The other would and it's pin measured .248 dia. After replacing the pins on both guns, from a sandbag rest, both can shoot a quarter size hole from that distance. The belt-mountain pins measure .2495 and I could tell that they made an improvement to my rugers. WBR

[Sixshooter_45]

I will add this for anyone who does any trigger work or has it done.  I was taught when done to do a rubber mallet test.  With the gun empty, cock it and test the gun by hitting it with a rubber mallet a whole lot with fairly strong blows.  If it falls even once you messed up.

Aso as for lightneing springs, if it won't fire every brand of primer, it ain't right.  I think Steve (WBR) has handled my Ruger Single-Six 32 amg which is not a CAS gun but a field gun, it has a 1 pound pull, no creep and will fire every small rifle primer.  If mine will fire these that are used in heavy field loads sometimes in 32 mag, then there is no reason one won't fire every brand of pistol primers, anything less is a broken gun.  An opinion that sometimes gets me in trouble, so be it.

Delmonico you were taught correctly as that rubber mallet test is called the impact-off test and another test that should be performed is called the push-off test. With that hammer at full cock, push down @ a 45° angle and forward at the same time. If it passes both of these tests, then all is well with the sear engagement of the full cock hammer notch.

I removed all the creep in my trigger, added a belt mountain pin, a David Clements crescent shaped rod ejector, installed and re-contoured a SBH hammer, installed a trigger stop screw, corrected the lock-up timing so now the cylinder latch head, (bolt), now stays down until it pops up into the lead, so no more ugly rings, although my cylinder has been marred for so long it's hard to polish the marring out completely.

My cylinder throats have just been reamed to .4525 by cylinder smith and can't wait to she how my Ruger Vaquero shoots next weekend.

I will try to give a detailed report on everything that has been done, (not necessarily the methods), to my Vaquero to make it a fine looking sixgun, as well as, a shooter, and above all else safe.

Good shooting and have fun doing mods., however, make absolutely sure you do them properly or else have a qualified person do them for you.

I have attempted and accomplished certain mechanical things on my Vaquero that I would NOT recommend others to do. You have to know your own level of skill.

[Delmonico]

Yer right about the push test, I just forgot about it when I posted.  Guns, cars or toasters, if you ain't sure what you are doing you can make a dangerous object out of it.

[Whiskey Hayes]

Andy

You've received some good advice on things to modify on youir gun but I like to take the approach of load development and getting the gun to shoot POA.  While you are doing this shooting you can determine what the gun actually needs and what changes you would actually like to make just to satisfy your personal preference.  I would recommend making one modification at a time then shoot the gun to see how the gun and you react to the modification.

WH

[andy42s]

thanks for all the good info everyone. I consider myself to be fairly competent, with many years of mechanical engineering experience. However, I don't think I'll be messing with the hammer at all. I like whiskey's idea about doing one mod at a time and testing to see how I like it. I'm also getting married soon, so I don't have money to blow on all sorts of accessories. I think I'll just start with stoning everything to smooth it out, and maybe some new springs. I'm used to a heavy trigger pull, and don't want to shoot my foot off, but I'll try 'em out and see how I like. I certainly don't want the base pin rattling out

[Sixshooter_45]

thanks for all the good info everyone. I consider myself to be fairly competent, with many years of mechanical engineering experience. However, I don't think I'll be messing with the hammer at all. I like whiskey's idea about doing one mod at a time and testing to see how I like it. I'm also getting married soon, so I don't have money to blow on all sorts of accessories. I think I'll just start with stoning everything to smooth it out, and maybe some new springs. I'm used to a heavy trigger pull, and don't want to shoot my foot off, but I'll try 'em out and see how I like. I certainly don't want the base pin rattling out

Usually a stronger base pin latch spring, item #4, fixes that problem.

I just received my cylinder back and the throats are right on the money @ .4531 - . 4533, ye-ha!

[northwoods]

six shooter 45,

How  did you adjust the bolt timing?

[Four Eyed Floyd]

hello,
I'm new to cas, and I have recently purchased a ruger new vaquero. I'm interested in hopping it up a little bit. I have read on posts elsewhere about spring kits and stuff like that. I think they were wolf springs or something. I can't really remember. Also a base bin from some company. If anyone could suggest what some common basic alterations to this revolver are, it would be appreciated. thanks

Unless you are a speed demon shooting why mess up a rock solid gun. Send it to Ruger with some loads you normally use and get it sighted in...then shoot, a lot. Mine just get better and better the more I shoot, 350-400 a week!