Kirkpatrics leather

[louisc]

Howdy Partners, can anyone tell me if the JOHN WAYNE style HOLSTER from Kirkpatrics for $195 is it worth it. Again I know little about leather, I'm a Lefty and have just the one model P right now, looking to get another, just in the future

[Tensleep]

I have yet to see anything made by Kirkpatrick that isn't worth what you pay for it.

[Deadeye Don]

Another John Wayne holster and belt combo is made by El Paso Saddlery.  I have a double holster and rough out belt combo from them that is spectacular.  Safe shooting.  Deadeye.


http://www.epsaddlery.com/

[E.R.Beaumont]

Howdy Pards and Pardettes.

louisc Pard, it is like Tensleep said, everything that I have ever seen by Kirkpatrick has been well done, made in America holsters.  They use American leather and they use a heavy enough weight to make a quality product.

El Passo also makes a good product, and the Company was around in the 1880s, but it will take some TIME to get it. 

Send The Marshal a mesage, he and Tequila are in the leather supply business, and just by cooincedence, they sell Kirkpatrick products.  I don't think that you will find a better price on them anywhere else.

Just as an aside, some leather makers are just a little optimystic about delivery dates, and some will bill your credit card before they send out your stuff, heck some even before they make it.  Custom Leather is nice, but when you can get custom quality for mass production prices you are money ahead.  And, sometimes, what we think we want, is not what works best for us.  All that means is that you might change your style or catagory and then, when you really know what works best for you, then you spring the big bucks loose for the Custom Rig.

That is all I think I know.
Regards, Beaumont

[louisc]

thank you guys for all the help i think I'll go with Kirckpatrics you've been alot of help to me

[Slowhand Bob]

Not trying to influence your decision but thet prospectors rig by Kirkpatrick has always been one good looking rig in my eyes.  Though based on the early California style, they look to be jazzed up for competition.  Must agree with the consensus, though I have never owned any Kirkpatrick leather, complaints against their stuff are few and far between.

It is my understanding that Bianchi made one of the orriginal Duke rigs for John Wayne, not the first one but one that was used by the Duke in some later movies.  He is now operating under the FRONTIER LEATHER buisiness name,  i think....  These may be one of his off the shelf items due to popularity.

[louisc]

the question I have is, which is the period correct holster the buscadero,or the high rise hoop holster the one that slips on the belt,for the model p 1873. i would like it to be low on the hip,but while in the USAF i had to were a 3" web belt and the slip on motorolla that would dig in my hip after five min.

[Tensleep]

Bus-Kee-Daro ain't PC til tha ninties, 1890s that is...

[St. George]

The Buscadero Rig didn't appear until the 1920's - a product of Texas Ranger John R. Hughes and El Paso saddle maker S.D. Myers.

You'll find that on page 194 of 'Packing Iron' - by Rattenbury - as well as a couple of threads here at CAS City.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Deadeye Don]

I had thought 1890s was a tad too early as well,  but I also thought it was more an invention of Hollywood than of "real" life.  At any rate,  I would not even consider owning a Buscadero rig.  Safe shooting.  Deadeye.

[Slowhand Bob]

The holsters that are most applicable to our needs (SASS) and period correct to the wild and wooly west are the California Slim Jim and the Mexican Loop styles.  There are lots of early variations on the Mexican Loop and most of the modern competition holsters are even based on it.  If you desire a fair amount of drop, it is offered in most holster makers line as some variation of Kirkpatricks LongHunter rig.  An even earlier version with lots of muzzle forward cant is the Clint Eastwood Spaghetti Western style (I'm not sure who all makes these).

[Tensleep]

The Buscadero Rig didn't appear until the 1920's - a product of Texas Ranger John R. Hughes and El Paso saddle maker S.D. Myers.

You'll find that on page 194 of 'Packing Iron' - by Rattenbury - as well as a couple of threads here at CAS City.
Vaya,
Scouts Out!

I seem to recall a picture of some lawman in Arizona with a Buscadero rig.... Owens perhaps? I do believe that was pre 1900

Always a chance I could be wrong.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I had thought the buscadero-type drop belt could be found in the late 1890's in at least one instance.

[St. George]

The photo of Commodore Perry Owens isn't clear enough for any close examination - but the rig is supposedly 'his' design, and not a commercial one.

The Buscadero Rig came along far later.

The 'bible' of Old West leather is Rattenbury's book - 'Packing Iron', and in it, he documents the gunleather of the Frontier and has great photography as illustrations.

A copy belongs in your library, and is most highly recommended...

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Slowhand Bob]

I actually think the term buscadero should, if it actually doesn't already, refer to the belt style only.  The early versions used some very old west style holsters in the slot.  The holsters evolved seperately from the belt.   If we can get past the long drop of the Owens x-draw/reverse draw holster we will see that it is not attached to the belt in buscadero slot fashion.  It looks to me as if the holster skirt was removed from a standard holster and the remaining flap slid under the belt and probly sewn on, the picture quality isn't great.  This was a very wide combination rifle and pistol cartridge belt and looks to me like he just figured an out of the way spot to attach his backup gun, the pistol.

[E.R.Beaumont]

Howdy Pards and Pardettes.

Howdy louisc, Pard you can wear just about any holster style you want except that B West has to have drop loop holsters, and I think, but am not sure, that CC can't use Buscadero, and GF has to have two strong siders. 

I wouldn't wear a Buscy rig cause they flap, and if you tie them down you can spill a gun out of them just climbing stairs quickly, or for goodness sake just sitting down.  Yes I know you should use hammer thongs, but sometimes you can forget or it can slip off.  One other thing is if you are wearing a Buscy rig and tie it down, when you sit down your pistols are pointed at whoever is sitting opposit from you.  Yup, short barreled pistols worn high are a lot handier, just try to sit with 7 1/2" barrels in a Buscy rig.

As to what is PC, in SASS there realy is no  "Period" to be correct in.  In the SASS Universe the old TV Westerns, and the old Western Movies, pre 1970 mostly, but a few new ones also.  So it runs from John Wayne using a '92 without a forearm in a pre-War Between The States epic.  To Tom Selek even going so far as to have actual conversion pistols made for his movies.

PC most definately makes a difference in NCOWS, where they check you for zippers and PC underwear.  However, the good Pards in NCOWS consider themselves reinactors as well as shooting competitors.  That just means that they are picky, not a bad thing. 

That is all I think I know.
Regards, Beaumont

[Dr. Bob]

Howdy,

Well, as an NCOWS member, I have never seen anyone checked for zippers or what underwear they were sporting!!  There are some very minimum clothing requirements which most SASS folks that I have seen meet.  No buscadero rigs since we have a time period of 1865 to 1899 and the buscadero is a 20th Century [ca. 1920] invention of the movie industry.  At   ncows.org in the bylaws you will find the minimum clothing requirements and the approved firearms and non approved firearms and equipment lists.  NCOWS allows double action revolvers that are pre 1900.  Reproductions must closely resemble the model being copied.  NCOWS is different from SASS.  Both are full of great pards who will help you any way they can.  I chose NCOWS because of the Working Cowboy class where you need only 1 revolver and 1 pistol caliber rifle to compete.  I am happy with that much noise and SMOKE!!!!   The important thing for me is having fun with my long time pards!  Doesn't get any better than that!!

[Deadeye Don]

PC most definately makes a difference in NCOWS, where they check you for zippers and PC underwear. 


I am hoping that was meant as  a humerous comment, because it certainly is not an accurate comment on NCOWS.  There seem to be a few misconceptions about NCOWS that only serve to provide misinformation that may keep some people from joining us.
I think we should all watch what we say in these postings.  If it is meant to be humerous, please state so in the posting.  Safe shooting.  Deadeye.

[E.R.Beaumont]

Howdy Pards and Pardettes.


Dr. Bob, and Deadeye Don, Pards I in no way ment to demean the good Pards in NCOWS.  All that I ment was that SASS is like a bunch of kids playing in the back yard in that just about anything even remotely "Western" is OK.  My understanding is that the biggest difference between SASS and NCOWS is that Historical Accuracy is a large part of NCOWS because they are Re-Inactors, trying to preserve some Living History, as well as a Shoot and a good time.

I in no way ment to disparage the NCOWS organization or their members, their game includes more than just shooting Cowboy Guns.  Historical Accuracy is their goal, and I appreciate that.  I may not want to play that way, but I am happy someone else does. 

That is all I think I know.
Regards, Beaumont

[Slowhand Bob]

Lets jist say that fer SASS, PC, will be as important as the individual wishes to make it.  Its your choice and you will find find some pards to posse up with at any level.  There is another consideration for PC that true reinactors take into consideration, level of usage, just because it did exist does not make it a common item of use for the period.  If a thousand pictures were reviewed and one were able to spot one lonely set of belt loops, would this indicate that 75% of the cowboys could show up at a PC match wearing belted pants and call the gathering a true representation of what existed?

The last time I browsed old gun leather pictures it was obvious that much of our most heralded PC work really aint.  Most of the stuff that predates 1900 will very rarely exhibit decorative metal work beyond the occasional metal toe cap.  Look for the spots, rivets, tacks, conchos and inlays that we so frequently use to dress our leather up, it aint there, not even in an aged condition.  Look for the currently popular style of weaving our cartridge loops on the belt, this does not seem to be very common at all early on.  Look at most of what was done in the way of carving, mostly flat with little or no relief tooling.

Some might holler 'sour grapes' but what looks like the most common look for the working mans leather in the old west would more closely approximate the cheapest lines available today, Hunter, Oklahoma Triple K.  Shapeless, oversized with minimal basic tooling.  When we get into the mid and higher levels of off the shelf leather and custom offerings we are light years ahead of PC when it comes to quality and appearance.