Re: Leathersmiths.....shoulder holsters

[Trailrider]

Isn't a good shoulder rig an oxymoron?  I made a double shoulder rig for Peter Fonda to wear in "3:10 to Yuma", but I hated it so much I never sent it to New Mexico!  I've never wore a sholder rig I liked, except for the modified "Tankers" rig I carried my 1911 in, and that wasn't really cowboy.  Oh well.  If I can come up with something I like, and TLF will buy enough patterns to make it worth printing, I'll come out with one.  But, until then, I'd rather do nuthin' than do somthin' slip-shod.

Will

Funny, you should talk about packin' your 1911 in a "Tankers'" rig.  If you stop-action "Tombstone" and look at that "Huckleberry" rig "Doc" is wearing, you'll see that the backing shield is about a dead-ringer for that on an M-7!  The pouch and the rigging straps are different, of course, but otherwise it's an M-7!  Maybe the crew inside the horsedrawn "vee-hik-el" in "The War Wagon" should have worn those! 

[will ghormley]

Yeah, Val's rig has been popular, but I've not seen anything like in in museums or books.  That's not to say it had never been made.  I've seen lots of one-of-a-kind rigs from the Old West.  But, as one who reproduces gear from the Old West, I've limited myself to historic examples.   I've also limited myself to rigs that could be hidden.  If you didn't want to hide the iron, why put up with a chunk of metal in your armpit?

I think most concealed carry rigs were holsters that rode high on the belt.  The belt layed under the vest in the front and the coat covered the pistol on the side.  In reproducing both Frank and Jesse James rigs, I noticed how high on the belt the pistols actually rode.  This was in part to keep the gun out of the way when seated or mounting and dismounting, but it may have been designed to aid in concealment also.  Just thinkin' too much probably.

Will

[Dalton Masterson]

I am building a jesse james pair now, and they look good. They do look like they ride high, which will be nice for me. You are probably right on the early concealed being just hidden high under the coat. DM

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

whoops.....

[E.R.Beaumont]

Howdy Pards and Pardettes.

I shot my first season with a shoulder rig.  Well actually it was a low chest, high belly rig.  It was designed to go under coat, but not to be a real concealment rig, just faster to get to when seated at a card table. 

My father grew up in Eastern Washington, and the Idaho Panhandle in the '20s and early '30s.  He worked Summers on the ranches with "old Gummers" from the "Frontier Days".  He told me that the way they did it was to carry the holster on a pants belt and tucked into their back pocket.  Sort of a modified "Dallas Stroudenmyre" carry.  Everyone wore coats so they covered the pistol.  You can conceal a 6" barreled pistol with a vest.

That is all I think I know.
Regards, Beaumont

[will ghormley]

Another way to conceal weapons, (after most towns had banned firearms within town limits), was under the flap of batwing chaps, (early 20th century).  The holster was sewn to the chap were it was tight against the thigh, and the flap of the batwing covered it from view.  I've seen only a couple exampels of this type of holster, but I suppose it wasn't that uncommon.  It's just that most examples that were used got used up.  Another example I've seen was of a holster sewn onto the thigh, with a pocket sewn on top of it.  Cowboys got pretty inventive when they thought they had to.

Will

[Irish Dave]

I'd have to disagree on the shoulder rig thing. I have made several and prefer them -- for many reasons-- to the waist-belt carry method.

In my opinion, the key to a comfortable shoulder rig is to position the pouch so that it carries the pistol in the "hollow" created just in front of the arm when it's down at your side. It is still perfectly concealable and much more comfortable. Putting the pistol under the armpit is very uncomfortable as well as awkward. The hollow creates a natural spot for the pistol to set without creating funky "bulges" under a coat, as well.

I have made shoulder rigs for everything from 3" sheriff's models and Merwin Hulbert pocket armys to 7" S&W Russians. In my opinion, they do not have to be uncomfortable or difficult to wear.

I, too, prefer to primarily use historical styles as close as practical, and have yet to discover an original that uses the modern-style back loop or figure 8 securing strap. Maybe some one has, but my research has found the backstraps made of all different kinds of material, but universally attached from the upper back of the shoulder harness, across the back, under the offside arm and across the chest to attach to the front of the harness-- with a buckle or otherwise. Just a coupla centavos worth, FWIW.

[Slowhand Bob]

I am not a fan of the shoulder rig but have seen a few outfits that made them look reeal good.  The Val Kilmer 'Doc' looked right on and a few of the SASS pards do them justice as well.  I know one pard that wore a cross draw stacked against a 'Doc' style shoulder rig and his costume had to be seen to fully appreciate, but as you know,  this carry style was outlawed a few years back? 

I will not pretend to know what is reasonable for others but can deffinitely state that my great big ole high ride belly does not lend itself to concealing with a shoulder rig.  I'll go one step further and say that revolvers are not a prime candidate for concealment with shoulder rigs.  This doesnt mean that they do not offer some real world advantages for carrying ones pistol just not one of the better western concealment rigs, in my opinion.

I think ER Beaumont has hit the nail square when he says that the low ride shoulder rig is almost perfect for the card table shootist.  If concealment is parramount, one could have used a small derringer and found lots of good,out of the way, hiding spots but this would be for the guy who considers his gun as relatively unimportant.  If your gun is an important part of your poker game, you want it to be an imposing partner at the table with you.  A full size pistol butt setting high in your lap with the grip just peeking over your chips would let anyone know that you will not surrender a questionable hand easily!

Now days a good shoulder rig might offer advantage when one must wear lots of back pack or fanny pack straps or non gun gear on the load bearing hip area.  Many cops claim them to be the best rig for spending lots of time in the car or at a desk.   

[Marshal Will Wingam]

This is a good discussion on shoulder rigs so I've split it off into it's own thread. Keep it going, pards.

[will ghormley]

Just trying to recover from a weekend of fun at Winterset, Iowa and John Wayne's 100th Birthday Celebration.  Michael Martin Murphey set the tone for the weekend with his patriotic show.  Riders In The Sky put on a great performance.  The Wild West Review with all the horsemen, the mounted artillarymen from Fort Sill, OK, the whole she-bang, brought back all the best of America and the Wild West Show.  John Schaffner's chuck wagon meal was good enough to kill for I'm told, but I never had time to stop and taste it myself.  I thought of reachin' for a paw-full on my way past, but it looked hot and I was pretty sure John could have rapped the back of my hand with his ladel.  I feel for all of you cowboys who couldn't make it.

But that's not what I'm postin' about.  Iain, a friend of mine from Canada emailed me about picking up a tankers rig for his 1911.  I gave him the website address of where to get one.  That made me think others might like that address also.  So, here it is:  http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/LEG195-45504-1968.html  That's cheaper than I could make one for myself!

When I wore my tankers rig, I modified it to tie-in with my H-strap web-gear.  That took the burn out of the narrow leather band.  It also made it so whenever I slung on my web-gear, I was heeled at the same time.  Very convenient!

All this talk about the tankers rig is making me nostalgic.  I'd almost make a "Hollywood West", (fake old west), pattern out of it so's folks could have a real convenient shoulder holster to use.  I just might do that.

Will

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Those rigs affect me the same way, Will. Not PC but certainly cool.

That is a good price, pretty close to the cost of the leather. Thanks for posting the link.

By all means, do up a pattern to fit the cowboy stuff. There will probably be some who will jump on it.

[Frenchie]

What's the verdict on Dixie Gun Works' Josey Wales shoulder holster? Does it pass muster for 1872?

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=13922&osCsid=ca139d71de444edff4f8452e5b533004

[E.R.Beaumont]

Howdy Pards and Pardettes.

The question involved is if you are using a shoulder holster for concealment or easy access.  As everyone says they can be uncomfortable in your armpit.  If you are not trying to hide it a shoulder holster worn about where a crossdraw would be, but higher on the body is easy to access, sitting, standing, or whatever.

Mr Ghormley is probably right about concealment, a belt rig worn behind the strong side hip, or a crossdraw worn pushed over to the point of the hip will hide nicely under a sack coat.  As I said it is a matter of what you are trying to accomplish.

Regards, Beaumont

[will ghormley]

As far as historical authenticity goes, I've never seen a museum example, or a historical photograph, of a shoulder holster that wasn't designed to hide the gun.  Tombstone was the first I'd ever seen of the "tanker" style chest holster in a western.  While it is quite possible something like that may have been used in the Old West, I've never seen it.  It would be interesting to know if anyone else has an old photo of an original chest holster, or an antique example in a collection some where.  Without documentation, I would have to concider it a bit of Hollywood invention.  Without documentation, I would have to say the same about Dixie's "Wales" rig as well, though that one would be easier to believe. 

I'm not trying to get anyone's feathers ruffled, I really don't care what people wear.  But if they think it's authentic, I would hope they could document it.  Having said that, I think I will retire from the field before folks start chuckin' horse apples at me.

Will

[Frenchie]

Will, that's what I wanted to know, if there's any documentation for it. Thanks.

[will ghormley]

Just for clarification:  Frenchie, I didn't think you would chuck horse apples at me.  Sometimes, in an attempt to be clever or witty, I just sound stupid.  That reminds me of a quote from John Wayne, in his book of quotes.  "Life is tough.  It's tougher when you're stupid."

But, good news!  I got an email from the head of Product Development at TLF this afternoon.  He thinks a shoulder holster rig would be a smashing idea.  I would have to design it under the "Hollywood West" label, rather than the "Old West Collection" label, since I can't varify historical authenticity.

My first thought was to design it with holsters for the regular variety of Western Action revolvers.  Then, since I've made several of these rigs for guys carrying hunting pistols, I thought I should throw in some patterns for the most common big bore hunting pistols as well.  Maybe even a holster for scoped pistols.  So, help me out, what are the most common hunting pistols you guys are using these days, (I still hunt with a flintlock .54). 

Will

[Sawdust Jim]

No road apples here Will,

The only picture of a shoulder rig I can find is on page 16 of the Time/Life Old West series on the Cowboys. It is a studio photo that is undated but judging from the amount of mud on thier chaps, I dont think it is staged. One of the cowboys is wearing a shoulder holster that has a narrow cross strap similar to the WW II Tanker's holster. Unfortunately, I dont have a way to post photos yet, otherwise I would scan and post it. I have read about wearing a pistol "under your arm", ("A Texas Cowboy" by Charles A. Siringo & "I See By Your Outfit" by Lindmier/Mount) but there are no examples.

Hope this helps,

Jim

[will ghormley]

Hey Jim,

I looked that shoulder-strap holster up.  I wish I could get a better look at the picture.  It's not possible for me to say positively, but I would certainly bet the photo was taken after the turn of the century.  Judging by the cowboy cuffs worn by three out of the five cowboys, (and the stamping on them), as well at the double action pistol in the shoulder holster, I would say the photo was taken during the 19-teens or the 1920s.  I can't be sure, but the holster lookes like it belongs to a broom handled Mauser.

Will

[Mogorilla]

Has anyone looked at the vest rig on page 154 of Packing Iron?  It has a date of 1835-1845.  I am not sure how it was worn, but I don't think the two boot pistols shown with it were what were carried in the holsters, one, they would be under your chin and two the profile of the holsters indicates smaller pistols.   Anyone else have thoughts on this one?

[Slowhand Bob]

Was actully looking at the rig in Packing Iron yesterday.  Seems to be a vest arrangment and brought to mind the story of JW Hardin haveng holsters sewn inside his coat.  There are claims that he was supposedly extremely fast with an unorthodox double x-draw.  Seems thet there was no lack of sperryminters making holsters in the old west as there are several examples of one of a kind holsters.