Ottwa Creek Bill

[Marshal Deadwood]

Bill,,,,on a scale of one to ten,,,,how would you rate the fur/quality/ect..of your River Junction 'Hickok' hat ?

Like i said, iv been eyein' that one myself...I can see with it 'personalized' historic correct, its got a lot of potential.

If you'd perfer to just let me know by email about what you think of River J's hats, that would be fine Bill,,,but id appreciate it either way.

Thanks hoss,

mike

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Mike,
Their hats are of the best quality......and Jim Boeke will treat you right.

I just bought one of their scout wool felt hats for Patty so we can put together a southwestern impression for her. It is a lot like the Boss of the Plains but with a lower crown...

Now I'm no hat expert but the wool in this hat ($79.00?0 is as good as some of the other hats I've seen for three times the money.

The Hickok hat is of the best quality 10x beaver and it looks it...even though it doesn't look much like the one in their catalog any more. It no longer has a sweat band or liner.

I think if an Indian such as myself came across one of these in the 1870's  that would have been the first thing to go...so it's gone. If you're coming to the National Shoot next month I'll have it down there if you want to see it.....

Stay away from the Gus Crease style of hat....every Tom, Dick, Harry & Ginger in CAS as one, or two, or three.......

Bill

[Marshal Deadwood]

Bill,,,my profile pic has me with my 'gus' on,,,but for being 'right',,,I have a hat like ...much like,,Eastwood wears in Pale Rider...i have three docums for it to at least 1859 (the earliest one i think),,,,a gent is in a rescue party and has that exact hat on....

but,,,thats my 'street and offical function' hat..lol,,,Im wanting a more correct,,,plains hat,,,and,,iv been eyeing that Hickok hat for a spell,,,

Whats your opinion on River Junctions, 'Wyatt' hat ? Correct? or not ?

And,, the Josey Wales hats,,,they have two,,a big one and a smaller one,,,whats ya ideas on them ?

Lots of questions Bill,,sorry,,but money is harder to come by, and I wanna not have to get a bunch of hats,,rather hit it the first time,,,

and I know your flat truthful with your opinion and I trust you.

mike

[Chili Wolf]

Howdy OCB

>>It no longer has a sweat band or liner.

The hat had to get looser on you.
Question:  How much of a hat size increase did that make for you.
Thanks

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Chili...
I wear a 7 1/2 hat, IF it is a fitted hat.

But, because I do an Apache impression the fitted had just doesn't wash.

Without the hat band and liner, it is probably a little over 7 5/8's.

It comes down to just over my ears, exactly where I like them to be, with all this hair it is still a little loose.

I don't think that in the early 1870's an Apache would have walked into your local mercantile and purchased a new hat, he acquired them any way he could.

A hat band and liner was probably the furthest thing from being on his mind..

Bill

[Delmonico]

If one was good with math, it could be figured by finding out the thickness of the hat band.  Hat sizes are the circumference of the opening, divided by Pi and rounded to the nearest 1/8th of an inch.

[Mick Archer]

  Howdy Pards!

  I have two of RJ's "10X Beaver" hats.
  IMHO, great hats.

   My only complaint is the funky lining and weird gold stampings in the sweat band.   The liner is a funky polished white cotton-like material with a crown portion of clear plastic.  It is held in place with a dime size spot of glue under the sweat band.
   I am sewing new linings.

   The "pre-formed' crown treatment or style did not matter to me as I redo and "historically personalize" them anyways.  But I think/thought, for the money, the lining and sweat band shoulda, oughta, been better (not that big of a deal to replace).

   Both hats are too new to haver seen service and wear so I cannot yet comment on longevity and durabiity.  The "fur-felt" is smooth, stiff, and stout; and should wear like iron I am guessing, and never turn into a Hill Billy Hood.   

[Chili Wolf]

Chili...
I wear a 7 1/2 hat, IF it is a fitted hat.

But, because I do an Apache impression the fitted had just doesn't wash.

Without the hat band and liner, it is probably a little over 7 5/8's.

It comes down to just over my ears, exactly where I like them to be, with all this hair it is still a little loose.

I don't think that in the early 1870's an Apache would have walked into your local mercantile and purchased a new hat, he acquired them any way he could.

A hat band and liner was probably the furthest thing from being on his mind..

Bill

That's what I figured for size 1/8-1/4 inches for the inside stuff; I been working on a had in a similar way.  I think I should have originally ordered the hat a bit smaller.  Because the slightest breeze makes it take flight or if I tip my head in to much of an angle, (I don't like to strap it down all the time).  Oh well.

    Thanks for responding Bill

[Mick Archer]

  Howdy Pards!

  A little hot water will fix that, as sometimes will wear and use (and cycles of sweating and drying in the Summer Sun or Rains).
  However, a hat stretcher can be handy if one shrinks too much...      

   Mick Archer

[Chili Wolf]

  Howdy Pards!

  A little hot water will fix that, as sometimes will wear and use (and cycles of sweating and drying in the Summer Sun or Rains).
  However, a hat stretcher can be handy if one shrinks too much...      

   Mick Archer

Hey Mick
I tried that with the "hot" water, and did not achieve the results I was hoping for.
Maybe I did not use water that was hot enough, and or maybe not long enough in duration to help shrink the size.
Thx

  _Chili
aka: Don

[James Hunt]

Chilli: I had great, albeit unplanned, success in shrinking a fur felt hat that got drenched. I set it on top of my camping stuff in the back of a minivan where the sun hit it on the drive back to MI from WY. This resulted in a purchase of a hat stretcher. Now much of that was probably attributable to the leather hat band tightening up (it was my 'every day' hat) but it seemed as if the felt shrunk appreciably also. I remember hearing seams ripping as I expanded it to head size. Still it worked well and still holds together after all these ten years.

You may wish to adapt my procedure, but sun shining thru glass seemed to be a significant part of the formula - although you may wish to wear yours at the beach after taking a swim .

Rollins reported the use of an external hat band designed for the purpose to hold the hat on after it had stretched. There are images in Eggen's book (1903) of Cowboys wearing a scarf tied around their hat, I suspect that was not there to blow their nose on.

[Chili Wolf]

Howdy James Hunt:

Funny stuff you write, though a reality.
  I like your approach, and as my wife will agree I do become a very eccentric at times in achieving the look I am seeing in my head.  (When I am on these projects, I truly believe my wife now considers me a bit touched, though she still allows me to shoot my guns.)
  For me it's the challenge and fun, I wouldn't want it any other way.  Although sometimes my trial and error can be a bit costly no matter how I approach the project.
For most of you folks I am sure you know what I mean.  I am always attempting to gain a more successful means to the end result.

Thank you James and all of you.

_Chili
Aka: Don

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Chili,
We've documented on this forum several times that bonnet strings (modern term: stampede strings) did exist and were used on hats of the period.

Probably not of made of horse hair like they are today, but made of silk ribbon or braided deerskin (mine are braided brain tanned buckskin).

We've also concluded (I think) that these were mainly found in the southwest.....somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

So, if you're doing an impression/persona in the southwest, or maybe a cowboy that took the cow herds north you could use the bonnet strings.

I like the look of the buckskin and thats what I use to keep my hat on especially if I'm on horse back since it is over sized...

If you're interested, do a search here under "stampede strings"

Bill

[Chili Wolf]

OCB thanks for waking me up.

The Southwestern and or Southern California working saddle poke, I've been working with.
  At the side of little documentation, I am sure that some individuals will judge me to be with little knowledge, and that's ok with me.  So please bear with me in my feeble attempt to convey the following.

    WOW!  ""'barbiquejo' or 'bonnet string' ""
  I've used leather, but a bit wider flat and thin ...mMMMmmmmm, good.

Did a working saddle cowboy, tie a hat on, (and of course I don't know as I was not there in the 1800's)?
  Really did some of those folk do so?
  Just My opinion, YES! YES!  I can absolutely envision this being; even to the point of doing with a line of tack or wild rag (so to speak) wrapped complete over the top of the hat and passing under the chin.
  I say this, as it would appear to be prudent in some severe weather, and intelligent to do so.
I truly believe there was a whole heck of a lot of improvising to deal with weather and its elements back then.  And like many things, they just aren't given much to history, (not talking about Hollywood-izing).
  Documenting this article of usage is another in it's self as well known.  Though certainly history dictates a strong and clear usage with many of Vaquero's that the Southwestern Anglo Cowboy has assimilated from.

Ottwa Creek Bill thank you for the path...

_Chili
aka: Don

[James Hunt]

Indeed we have Bill: with increasing guilt I got rid of the $20 horsetail stampede cord on my CMS hat and replaced it with a thin brain tan leather string that I tied off just below my chin with only about an inch or so left over.

Chilli: This works waayyyy better than the old stampede cord did. First it holds the hat on my head as well as the $20 cord, second it is completely out of your way when handling a gun on horseback, third it is very, very light - really not noticeable unlike the cord which swung like a pendulum, and fourth you can simple pitch it in your hat while wearing if you don't want it out as it is so light it can't be felt on the head.

Perhaps some of this period correct stuff is correct because it worked allot better than the non-period correct stuff. Maybe Frazier's saddle shop of Pueblo used to carry horsehair stampede cords and they just didn't sell well amongst the working cowboy crowd  ,
Anyway Chilli do a search for stampede strings or bonnet strings and you should come up with some period photos that are examples of what you can do to keep that hat on in a high wind.

[James Hunt]

Chilli: a "bonnet string" is not supposition (NEVER suppose cause someone might oppose ), it is well documented. Do that search and you will see the references. Rollin's book is a primary source (sorry I borrowed MJB's copy and he had the temerity to request its return so I can't cite it at the moment), but we also provided many period images.

To this day a string is used by the little flat hat buckaroo crowd of Nevada, CA, Oregon and parts of Idaho. I went to a Ray Hunt Horse clinic a few weeks ago, and there was old Ray (no relation by the way) with a little string tied to his hat (Ray Hunt of Idaho is now considered the dean of western horseman in this country). However, the Texas and northern plains crowd don't seem to use it much in todays cowboy culture.

But if you are doing a SW cowboy persona or according to Barrows (I See By Your Outfit: Lindmier and Mount) a Montana cowpoke, but apparently not a Wyoming fella (same source) go ahead and tie one on!

[Books OToole]

(sorry I borrowed MJB's copy and he had the temerity to request its return so I can't cite it at the moment),

There are two kinds of fools in the world.  Those that loan books and those that return them.
    [I don't recall who I stole that line from.]


Books

[Will Ketchum]

There are two kinds of fools in the world.  Those that loan books and those that return them.
    [I don't recall who I stole that line from.]


Books

Sure you do!

Will Ketchum

[Chili Wolf]

Thank u all for expanding upon.
  For me it seems, with all the reference materials I have purchased through out, and other that I have reviewed in the past.  It's been hard in general to find much of the area (picture wise) I am trying to work.
  Most all the pictures appear to be pushing northward or from the more north geography.
  So I am not please with my endeavors in finding the Southwestern to Southern California type "ranch working the range saddle-cowboys" in that natural environment.  I am a bit discouraged, though I'll continue on...

Thanks for sharing.
Much appreciated