BP revolver steel vrs cartraidge gun steel ?

[Marshal Deadwood]

Is the steel,,,frame and barrel esp,,,softer in a Ubeti BP revolver than in their cartridge revolvers ?

If it is, how would the BP guns stand up when using converter cylinders and cartridges ?

And, do you only load for conversion/cartridges with BP,,,or can you do equivilent pressure loads with smokeless and be ok ?

Marshal Deadwood

[hellgate]

Marshal,
The R&D conversion cylinders are rated for smokeless loads held at equivalent BP load pressures. The steel in BP revolvers does not need to be as strong as for smokeless designed guns. The working pressures are way different. Look at a reloading manual like the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook or any other that shows loads for the 45-70. There will be 3 different sets of loads: for the Trapdoor (blackpowder), 1886(?) Winchester and the Ruger#1(falling block?) each handling different pressures. Or just look at a loading manual that lists pressures for each cartridge and look at the pressures generated by the BP listed loads vs the smokeless loadings. Smokeless can be loaded way down depending on the powder. One of the problems with pressure measurements is because the BP & smokeless working pressures are so different that different units of measure are used so you have an apples and oranges sort of thing. i.e. LUP, CUP, PSI (lead units of pressure, copper units of pressure, pounds per square inch, etc.). So, you can use smokeless in your Remington conversion ("1858") but do not try to make it into a 44Mag by loading hot 45LC loads as can be easily found and done.

[Flint]

The steel is indeed softer in the black powder cap & ball guns, though in my experience, the Ubertis are a bit harder than the Piettas. 

The part that takes the pressure is the cylinder, so a Kirst or R&D conversion, made of 4140 and 4150 steel will handle the smokeless, though in the case of the Remington or 1860 in 45 Colt, the cylinder walls are pretty thin.

The bore holds up fine, as we don't (and shouldn't) shoot high pressure jacketed bullets, but I'm sure the harder, heavier bullets from the 45 Colt hits the barrel throat harder.  I always give the throat a treatment with a Brownells 11 degree cutter to help ease the bullet into the bore.  I don't know if the frame itself is harder, but there's bound to be more strain on the cylinder arbor threads on the Colt type, but mine are holding up fine on the 51/61 Navy conversions I have made,shooting 148gr HBWC bullets from 38 Special cases.  The Remington is inherently stronger with its top strap, so can take the 45 Colt load better than a Colt design would.  In neither frame design should a Brass frame ever be converted to cartridge.

I have a drop-in R&D cylinder in an 1860 Uberti, and it's holding up fine, the cylinder arbor is still tight, but doesn't get shot near as often as the Remingtons do, time will tell.

Back to the barrel throats, if anything were to show a failure, I would expect the Remington with its exposed threads to crack or expand from bullets entering the throat, but they all seem to be holding up with no problems on either Ubertis or Piettas.

Notice that the Uberti made Opentops and Conversions have larger diameter cylinders than the Cap & ball guns, with a corresponding higher barrel center in a taller frame, which is what Uberti has done, as well, with their new Forged frame Remington.  The larger cylinder (larger than the Original Colts) will withstand the higher cartridge pressures, and are made of 4140 steel.  The barrels are also harder, evidenced by the feel of the reamer when touching up the forcing cone.  Cimarron is selling the 72 Opentop up to 45 Schofield caliber, while EMF is now selling it in 45 Colt.  Apparently they can take it.

The upshot of it is, the Uberti Opentops should last a lot longer than a cap & ball conversion under heavy use, but as most (home made)Colt conversions using Kirst or R&D cylinders are 38 caliber, they aren't going to be submitted to the strain a 45 cartridge woud give them.  The Remington is already stronger, so the 45 Colt isn't going to be a particular problem with that frame.

The new Uberti forged frame Remington was made larger to accomodate a larger cylinder for their factory conversion, but I would guess it was probably done more for cartridge rim clearance than strength, as the R&D conversion cylinder has angled chambers, and the Kirst is a 5 shot to fit within the Remington cap & ball cylinder diameter.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

The part that takes the pressure is the cylinder, so a Kirst or R&D conversion, made of 4140 and 4150 steel will handle the smokeless, though in the case of the Remington or 1860 in 45 Colt, the cylinder walls are pretty thin.

I don't have the exact data, but I'd heard that a few hundred proof loads will stretch the frame out of tolerance, so even though the cylinders will take it, I sure wouldn't trust the frame on mine with anything over cowboy loads. It may not let go like a grenade, but there are some serious problems that could show up eventually. There is a reason why the new ones are made with better frame steel and the brass frames ae not approved for the conversions at all.

[sundance44`s]

I can`t wait to get my hands on the 1858 Remington USFA has in the makeings ...Just maybe it will be as strong as a Ruger or close ....I wrote them an email yesterday asking alot of questions about it ...they wrote back saying just keep an eye on their site for updates ...it`s in the makeing.

[Cimarron Lawman]

I hope USFA follows through and makes the '75 also, to original specs.

The New Model Army ('63) is nice, but I adore the '75.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I can`t wait to get my hands on the 1858 Remington USFA has in the makeings ...Just maybe it will be as strong as a Ruger or close ....I wrote them an email yesterday asking alot of questions about it ...they wrote back saying just keep an eye on their site for updates ...it`s in the makeing.

I thought I was done buying them but, like you, I'll pick up another one or two when they come out. I called them a while back and they told me the same thing. It doesn't hurt to pester them so they get a wiggle on to hit production with them. Gonna be sweeeeet!