Smith Carbine - Comparison with Spencer - More - Smith Articles added

[Mick Archer]

  Howdy Pards!

  "Technically" or "historically,"  no...   

   While the Smith bullet was cast and not sweged,  the "sprue" was either cut smooth or left a very, very slightly raised "dome" to either the center portion of the bullet base or the entire base itself of the solid bullet.
   
   Smith bullets were made by a number of firms and varied everso slightly. Typically, the bullet for the foil wrapped case had one "chanelure" or grease groove and one raised ring at the base.  The bullet for the semi-elastic India Rubber cartridge had one groove and two raised rings.

  Just an historical aside...  Initially the Smith cartridges received complaints as the powder charge dribbled out of the open touch-hole in the cartridge base leaving cartridges carried in a cartridge box bullet up partially or even totally empty.
   When the Yeck repro';s came out in the mid 1970's the same problem occurred  (one time resulting in a burst barrel at a WSA shoot I was at) requiring a grommet to be placed in the hole, or the pards either inserting a punched newspaper disk, or piece of toilet paper into the cartridge first, or a sticky "inventory dot" over the touch-hole to keep the powder in..)

   Mick Archer
   Carabinier
   

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I am loading the smith with a small piece of curler paper in the bottom of the flash hole, then dumping powder in.  I use an undersized dowel with a small square of curler paper over the end, then push it in and withrrdraw the dowel. The curler papers make great cumbustible Sharps cartridges also, and behave like nitrate paper.  Best thing is that they only cost about $3 /1,000!

[Mick Archer]

  Howdy  Pards!

  I initially had a pard make a punch that would cut out disks from a section of newspaper that would drop-in, or go down with a boost from a dowel.
  The I went to squares of toilet paper helped by a dowel

   But found I preferred the tiny stick-em inventory dots that the flash just burned its way through and did not need to be removed before firing.

  Mick Archer

[Tubac]

As I told the T. Lawman, I don't shoot paper cartridges in either of my Sharps.
The Sharps .50/70 conversion is very easy to clean, much like the Spencer.
In the Pedersoli .54 I use the machined Brass cartriges, sort of like a Gallager cartridge.
The clean up of the Pedersoli is again very easy.
If you made blanks from the brass cartridges for the .54 would they be illegal for re-enacting?

Tubac

[Fox Creek Kid]

http://www.mcpheetersantiquemilitaria.com/06_ammunition/06_item_023.htm

[Tuolumne Lawman]

As I told the T. Lawman, I don't shoot paper cartridges in either of my Sharps.
The Sharps .50/70 conversion is very easy to clean, much like the Spencer.
In the Pedersoli .54 I use the machined Brass cartriges, sort of like a Gallager cartridge.
The clean up of the Pedersoli is again very easy.
If you made blanks from the brass cartridges for the .54 would they be illegal for re-enacting?

Tubac

I believe the N-SSA folks use them in live fire target matches, but they would not be allowed in battle re-enacting (at least here in CA with NCWA & ACWA) as they are not historically correct for Sharps of the time. 

Besides, I go through about 60 rounds in a battle, ( and two battles a day) and it would be impossible not to loose some. You can loose 25% just falling out of the cartridge box when you take a hit or run, jump, and fall.  AT several dollars a piece for the Sharps brass (and even the Smith brass cases, that would hurt.  I hate even loosing the plastic Spencer blanks at 2/$1!  Smith black plastic are at least only 4/$1.

[Tubac]

Thanks for the information. I'm not very knowledgable about American Civil War re-enacting.
The only Am C.W. re-enacting out here in the Confederate territory of Arizona that i'm aware of
is the skirmish at Pecacho. I guess I could be one of the gallent lads that helped Syilvester Mowry
smuggle lead to Texas for "The Glorious Cause".

Tubac

[Mick Archer]

  Howdy Pards!

  Brass cartridges for a Sharps... "would not be allowed in battle re-enacting (at least here in CA with NCWA & ACWA) as they are not historically correct for Sharps of the time. "

   But modern plastic would be for a Spencer?
       

    Just a-funnin', just a-funnn'....   

     Mick Archer

[Steel-eye Steve]

I had a pard contact me off list and ask why I don't like the Sharps paper cartridge carbines.  The reason I prefer Spencer above all other guns (except maybe Henries<g>) for shooting and re-enacting is obvious.  Firepower! Even with the anemic plastic Spencer blanks, they are preferable to the Sharps.  The Spencers are fast and the blanks are easy to make and easy to load. In real life, having 8 rounds in your carbine (7+1) while on horseback is unbelievable firepower for a Cavalryman.

Below is the text of my response why I prefer the Smith to the Sharps.

"I like the paper cartridge Sharps in live fire, with real bullets!  The cartridge, especially if packed tight, loads very well.  The original linen cartridges were even better, I assume.  My replica shoots 1 foot high at 25 yards, but I could change the front sight.

Paper cartridge Sharps suck for re-enacting!

Floppy blanks used in re-enacting are a pain in the butt to load.  Also, the small amount of powder that shaves off and sets on top of the breech block flashes if you don't tip it or blow it off.  Then there is the powder that accumulates inside the spring hollow in the rear of the handguard.  It can go off like a grenade. Without the back preasure of a live round going down the barrel, the free floating breech plate does not seal, and there is blow-by both up and down.  Now lets talk about cleaning the BP sharps.  Complete disassembly of the breech block, including the breech face is a must.  The flash channel from the cone is also a pain.

The Smith is MUCH simpler to load, maintain, and MUCH MORE easy to clean.  I think the blanks made from the black plastic case load easier than the paper ones in the Sharps."

Have fun with the Smith, they are great little guns. I usually advise new reenactors to go the Smith route as mentioned they are much easier to take care of then the Sharps. While I don't have a paper cartridge Sharps, I made enough paper blanks for my Merrill to really enjoy making Smith blanks. I put a cigarette paper dot over the flash-hole, then fill the Case with powder. Compress the charge a little, then place some round label stock on the mouth of the cartridge and push into place with a dowel. Don't bother with florist foam, it doesn't work well with Smiths. If you plan on re-enacting, I would loctite the pivot screw as it tends to work out as the breech is repeatedly opened and closed.  For live ammo, I have found that the .50 TC Maxi-balls work, as I'm not in a position to cast bullets. If you use Swiss FFFg, don't load cases with more then 30 grains as the case will painfully rupture.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Steve,

Thanks for the input on the blanks.  I use a small square of curler paper in the bottom, then powder.  I have been using a small square of masking tape over the case mouth (for blanks), then trimming.  Placing a dot and pushing in with a 1/2" dowel is genius! I already firgued that crumble foam won't work.

I have been using an Armi Sport 1863 Sharps carbine for re-enacting and have learned to HATE making the paper blanks!  Making up 200-300 for an event is enough to make you nuts.  The plastic Spencer blanks are easy: Shotgun primer, 12 grains FFFG, then a small piece of masking tape (or now inventory dot) are easy to make.  The problem is, my unit doesnot use Spencer, since we are an 1863 portrayal  of our unit, and we did not get Spencer's until early 1864.  Second, they Spencer blanks are embarassingly mild.

With the Smith, I made a block with 50 holes to set the cases in.  Then a piece of curler paper pushed down, powder from a flask, then a piece of tape over the top. (and now a dot pushed in with a dowel instead).  Great.

As for live rounds, I have about 100 of the Dixie Spire point, single groove Smith bullet.  I haven't loaded any yet, but my pard says they work well.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Well, I shot both the Spencer and Smith last night.  The Spencer still wins, hands down!  I got of 8 rounds in the time it took to get off three in the Smith.  I used about 39 grains FFG Goex and the hard rubber Smith cases.

The Smith bullets I got from a pard, though,  are actuaally .520 diameter Maynard bullets, instead of .515 Smith bullets.  They shaved off a nice little ring of lead on the sharp face of the forward chamber edge, just like when loading a round ball in a percussion cylinder! 

I didn't do bullseye, but the Smith seemed to shoot to the same POA as the Spencer. The Smith seemed dead on (about 2 inches above POA at 25-30 yards).   They both killed every can, rock and pine cone within 35 yards, off-hand.

Read my other post about Hodgdon's 777, though!

[Major 2]

Boy you guys have it made...
in my day ...

no really I started Mounted Cavalry reenacting during the bicentennial ... there was just nothing replicated in a Carbine...
except the Sharps. I bought a Garrett I still say it was the best replica of Sharp ever made.
We used to have cartridge making bee's.. 4 of us sat around in assembly line order making 500-1000. So Bernie I can relate.
Over 28 years I used The Sharps (both original & the Garrett, a Sile & a Petroceli ) , Henry, Spencer (Original) , Burnside (original)  Gallagher (Repo), a Maynard and a Starr
a Smith (Repo) ...a 55 Springfield pistol carbine (Repo).. several Musketoons..
I handled a used all mounted...
I had the magazine open and loose all my Henry Blanks  made from necked down 444 marlin brass that was costly)
sliced my hands up on the Sharps... that hurt, pinched my finger with others..
nutted myself with the double over opening Smith.
and worried I damage my Original Spencer...

In it all I had a BLAST... but you know the easiest was the little Springfield I used.

[Gimpy Gus]

I'm new to Cas City but I've been following your postings on the Spencer 56-50 and the Smith 50 carbine with great interest since I shoot both.(Armisport and Navey Arms respectively) I use a 365gr bullet sized to .515 (for both) and made from 20/1 alloy. I either cast my own using a Rapine 515-365 mold or use Montana Precision Swaging's bullet which is also made from the same mold. For the 56-50 I use Starline brass (full length resized),CCI Mag primers, 45gr of Black Mag-3, and a card wad made from a manilla folder. Overall length is 1.580 which leaves one grease groove exposed. Velocity=1075,Sd=4.4,and average 3 shot group=1.75in.  at 50 yds. Bullets areSPG lubed and powder is measured by volume. With the Smith I use plastic cases from DGW, 42 gr of Black Mag-3, same wad,but the bullet is seated with no grease grooves exposed. Velocity=984, 8ft variance h-l, and average 3 shot group=1.50in at 50 yds. I have used black powder, Amer. Pioneer, and 777 in both guns but so far the BlM-3 has offered the best compromise between accuracy and power. Important since I use both for hunting. The Smith is not as reliable as the Spencer  especially in wet weather. A few deer and boar have gotten a free pass due to missfires but overall it usually comes through. No missfires or jams with the Spencer, and I did take a nice antelope with it last year.

[Two Flints]

Hello SSS,

Found this article on the "Smith Carbine" by Paul D. Johnson, that appeared in the December, Volume 17, Number 6, 1995 issue of Man At Arms magazine.  This one was hard to reproduce, so you will have to click on each thumbnail photo once, and after it enlarges, click on it again in order to read the text.

Two Flints

[mtmarfield]

   Greetings, TwoFlints!

   Neat stuff! I've never 'benched' my Navy Arms Smith 'Artillery', but I've always appreciated its reliability of fire. It's a nice, handy little carbine.
   
   Be Well!

        M.T.Marfield:.
            5-26-07

[Fox Creek Kid]

Excellent reference to primary source info, Two Flints. 

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Thanks for adding to my Smith Binder:  Doubt if it will ever be as thick as my TWO Spencer binders<g>!

[Two Flints]

TL,

If you want the original article, Email me your address and I'll send it to you. 

Two Flints

[Two Flints]

TL,

For your edification.  Remember to click once, and then again, right click to print.  Two Flints



And yet another article on Smith Carbines.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

You are both a gentleman and a Scholar, Two Flints!  Thanks