Ammo for the Sharps .45/70 .45/90 and .45/120

[Pedro]

Could I have a list of the best mix are you using ?
Thanx MEN, I appreciated alot !

[Fox Creek Kid]

Pedro, if you're talking BP there is no "slap together" round that works in all guns. Loading an accurate and CONSISTENT BP round can take months of shooting every weekend to find a load. I don't shoot smokeless in these rifles so I can't help you there.

[Delmonico]

What you need to do is go through this forum and the Darksiders Den and read all the treads on ammo reloading and go from there, many threads on bullets, casting them, lubing or paper patching them, mostly with black powder or subs.

If you are wanting to load smokeless look to data from Accurate Arms and 5744, it seems to be what most who shoot nitro powders seems to like, it was developed for that purpose.

Even with modern firearms and Nitro powders, there is no load that is best for all rifles, shotguns or handguns.

[Pedro]

My goal was to have an idea of which kind of CARTRIDGE are you using...
Understand me ?

For example
CAIUS TITUS is using 535 gr.bullet,  IMR5744 70grain, Aussie brass.

Only to know..understand me?

BP and also smokeless too....no prob..alot of guys asking me!

[Ol Gabe]

Pedro,
Good suggestions from Fox Creek Kid & Del, they know whereof they speak, but it would also be of help to know where you are located and shoot since humidity and barometric pressure can also effect the performance of the reloads. For example, you wouldn't necessarily reload for a 45-70 you are shooting in hot and humid Louisiana the same way you would in a high and dry valley in New Mexico. It is doubtful that the same load would perform the same way due to humidity and air pressure. So, please give us an idea where you or those asking you for data are located so the pros here can suggest better info.
Best regards and good shooting!
'Ol Gabe

[Pedro]

WOW WOW WOW

As usual 'Ol Gabe touched the BULLEYE !
He is right as bacon on the scramble eggs...

ok ok..let me have a minimum mix for the different three areas:
1.humidity area (for ex. LOUISIANA)
2.desert area (for ex. NEW MEXICO or ARIZONA ?)
3.classic plain are (for ex. MISSOURI ?)

so we can have a better idea.

I know for example a friend of mine was using only bullet from .450 gr in windly MONTANA!!   

[calexander]

I have an armi sport 45/120 1874 model sharps 34 inch barrel double set triggers. I will not take for granted that you have shot a lot of black powder. When loading the black powder cartredge the use of magnium primers is a must and never leave any dead air space in the cratridge, now having said that for the 45/120 with a 405 grain flat base hollow point I load 82.5 graing by weight not volume Pyrodex  P and a over the powder 45cal wonder wod this gives me about 1900 feet per second at the muzzle and recoil is heavy but manageiable.

[drcook]

If it was me, besides reading the forum here, I would go to the following and spend a couple weeks
reading

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/

http://www.bpcr.net/index-a.htm

http://www.longrangebpcr.com/

if you are going to shoot smokeless, there is plenty of info in the reloading manuals for the 45-70. The
larger 45's have such a big case, that shooting smokeless is inadvisable.

for blackpowder:

you will find that what works for my rifles, won't necessarily work for your rifle(s). also you will need to
determine whether you will be shooting plain old Goex, (about 13.00 per lb when bought in 25 lb cases)
Goex Express, Swiss, 17.00 + per lb, etc.

Different powders require different loading techniques, such as compression amount, etc.

I shoot Goex because I am buy 25 lb cases, and can't afford 1000.00 a year for powder to shoot swiss,

You don't necessarily need "magnum" primers. That is a myth that has persisted since smokeless came
into use.

A lot of the competitive shooters are  actually using large pistol primers with thick wads under them,
or standard primers with under powder wads to cut down on the briesence (spelling ?)

I use "match" primers. Fed 210M (the M designates match, not magnum) or CCI BR-2's (Benchrest
quality primers).

[calexander]

Drcook I recommend the magnium primers in the 45/120 only because I get mor consistant velocity when trying to burn 110 to 120 grains large pistol promers in a rifel case what about hte primmer pocket  how does tha work.

[Ranch 13]

large pistol promers in a rifel case what about hte primmer pocket  how does tha work.

Depending on load factors , they work great. I have a load for one of my 45-70's that shoots super good using largepistol magnum primers in rp nickle cases.

Pedro, one load that works consistantly well in a variety of 45-70 rifles with black powder is 68 grs of Goex cartridge winchester cases, and ww large rifle primers, a .030 fiber wad and either the lyman postell or the government bullet seated to the driving band.

[calexander]

Have you tryed any black horn 209 powder yet? I am goung to pick up some and see how that performs. I have the armi sport 1874 model in 45/70 and for hunting I shoot a 350 grain flat base pushed with 50 grans pydrox P by weight a felt wad (45 cal wonder wod)
velocity is 1850 fps works well on deer and hogs at 100 to 150 yards.

[drcook]

I light off 108 grains of Goex with the Fed 210M's with no problems and some of my friends are using
CCI-BR2's in their 45-110's.

One of the theories that people are working with either softer primers or using wads to soften the
flame up has to do with the fact that primers back in the day of black powder weren't as strong as they
are now. Substitute black powders (pyrodex) or true smokeless powders are harder to ignite than
blackpowder. In fact, in some of the large military guns, a blackpowder charge is used to ignite the large
smokeless charge. It seems that a lot of folks are getting less shot to shot velocity deviation using the
softer primers with enhanced accuracy.

The way the wads work with large pistol primers is to take up the leftover space so that 1. they don't
slam into the breechblock and 2. softens the fire even more. people insert the desired thickness paper
in between the case and the primer, the primer cuts the paper and seats on top of it.

you can use various thicknesses of wads at the bottom of the case to soften the flame front down.

I use cigarette paper wads on the bottom of my cases solely to keep the powder grains out of the
flashholes. They are too thin to do anything else.

Lately I have been using 15 grains of 3F on the bottom of the case, with the remainder being 1F
powder (Goex blackpowder). I separate the 2 powders with a cigarette paper wad to keep them
from mixing. I have found that the fouling is significantly less. I will shoot 25 rounds or so, and there
is not much fouling in the barrel. This is in my 45-100 and 45-110's. I am shooting either 540 grain Paul
Jones Creedmores or 550 grain Hoch Creedmore bullets.

dave

[drcook]

Here is an article from "GUNS" magazine about the Blackhorn 209 powder.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_7_55/ai_n31881939/

dc

[Fairshake]

I will +1 on the load given by Ranch 13. That is the exact load that I use in my 45-70 rifles. I will add that I use starline cases and anneal them before loading.

[john boy]

For example
CAIUS TITUS is using 535 gr.bullet,  IMR5744 70grain, Aussie brass.
Only to know..understand me?
BP and also smokeless too....no prob..alot of guys asking me!

Pedro, I hope that 70grs of 5744 is a typo and no mention of what size case it is going into!  So, I looked up the loading data for the extreme size case ... a 45-120
Powder - Burn Rates - Max Charges - CUP for a 45-120
5744 - BR91 ... no loading data for a 45-120
4198 - BR109 - 46gr - 28,300
4895 - BR126 - 60gr - 28-500
As you can see, the Burn Rate for 5744 is higher than the other standard powders used in large calibers and the powder charge is way beyond the maximum.  And if this Caius is loading 70gr of 5744 .... One Hell of a Safety Problem in a 45-120 because it is way over maximum pressure.  And if he is loading that charge in a smaller 45 case, I'd stand in the parking lot when he touches it off.

I'd reconfirm the 5744 powder charge and caliber that this stated 70grs is being used in.  If the number is correct - both of you better go to the vendor's smokeless powder loading data and get an education before someone gets severely hurt and the rifle is scrap value.  If the number of grs is a typo - POST THE CORRECT CHARGE AND CALIBER as a correction

And also, if it is correct and you pass the information on to another person - your an accomplice to their safety issue

As for original powder charges in the 45 series cases, you would also be best to read this article  and buy the standard reference loading manuals...
Loading.pdf]Introduction to Black Powder Cartridge Rifle Loading By Chuck Raithel   There is loading data at the end of the article

Only to know..understand me?

I sure do.  I don't believe you are at all educated in original and smokeless powders loading data to be

alot of guys asking me!

to anyone, including yourself!

[Marshal Deadwood]

45-70 Government (Springfield Trap Door less than 18,000 psi)
Barrel: 24" ■ Twist: 1-20" ■ Primer: WIN WLR ■ Bullet Diameter .458"
5744 405 LC FP 24.3 1,226   ----         27.0 1,394 16,100 2.550
5744 420 CP LFNGC 25.6 1,210  ---     28.5 1,375 16,100 2.600
5744 460 CP LFNGC 24.3 1,102  ---      27.0 1,253 18,800 2.680
5744 500 MCB RN 23.4 1,070    ---     26.0 1,217 16,100 2.635
5744 525 MCB SS 21.6 1,060    ----     24.0 1,205 16,300 2.655
5744 530 LYM Postell 20.1 1,036 ----    22.4 1,178 18,600 2.950
-------------------------------------------------------------
45-70 Government (Standard Rifles less than 28,000 psi)
Barrel: 24" ■ Twist: 1-20" ■ Primer: WIN WLR ■ Bullet Diameter .458"
5744 300 SIE HP FN 36.7 1,712  --   40.8 1,874 27,200 2.550
5744 350 HDY RN 33.8 1,529 ---    37.5 1,676 27,700 2.550
5744 400 SPR FN 29.7 1,460 ----     33.0 1,610 27,800 2.540
----------------------------------------------------------
45-70 Government (Ruger No. 1 and 3 less than 40,000 psi)
Barrel: 24" ■ Twist: 1-20" ■ Primer: WIN WLR ■ Bullet Diameter .458"
5744 300gr SIE HP FN 43.2 1,986 --   48.0 2,159 38,900 2.550
5744 350gr HDY RN 39.4 1,771 --      43.8 1,929 38,000 2.550
5744 400gr BAR FNSP 36.9 1,620 --    41.0 1,787 38,100 2.550

This data is from the Accurate Arms site.

Edited by Moderator"

Although since we all here have computors we should look up loading data rather than trust others.

MD

[john boy]

Marshal, I for one thank you for the time gathering and posting the 5744 loading data for the 45-70.  Pedro will appreciate this FACTUAL DATA!  Powder vendors spend thousands of $$ on manufacturing - analyzing and testing powders for specific calibers by bullet weights.  This is the type of data that our BROW readers can ... Take to The Bank as being accurate and safe.  They only have to use their computer browser to access all the vendor's websites for the data.

Posting incomplete and unsafe data, that some BROW readers may take as the gospel truth ... only Takes Them to the Hospital.

I can understand why the SASS Wild Bunch forbids posting nitro loads

As for original gunpowder loads, with it being a weak, inefficient powder compared to nitro - one can really not fall into a danger area with a few extra grains used in modern steel firearms.  BUT, this is not a valid statement using substitute powders such as Triple 7 - Pyrodex, etc and specifically Blackhorn 209, which is really a nitro composition powder

And let it be said additionally... NEVER USE FFFFg powder unless you are skilled in ballistics and reloading.  Only Fg - FFg and FFFg powder and also stay away from duplex loads unless you know what the heck you are doing based on sound ballistics data, relative quickness of powders and which powders will emulate a black powder recipe

So, what's the bottom line?

  Always consult recognized reloading manuals.

[Delmonico]

Yhank You John Boy.  Today with powder companies having websites with their most up to date data, we don't have to hope the local gunshop has the newest free manual from the powder company of your choce, we don't have to call or write them asking that they be sent like we did 20-30 years ago.

Sometimes I think the first task a new reloader who uses anything but straght black should have to do it write on a chalk board a 100 times:

Always used data from a reconized loading manual.

[drcook]

The following pics are off the link that I posted in a thread about rollers. However they are so very
pertinent to this thread as these are the result of IMPROPER UNSAFE SMOKELESS loads in firearms
that were designed for BLACKPOWDER, which are BROW rifles.

The first pics are of a roller built for the smokeless 7mm rounds at the turn of the century which were
different than the smokeless loads of today. My opinion, is that they were pretty marginal at that even.

The first couple pictures resulted in minor injury, the last pic resulted in a case of terminal death. The
breechblock blew into the guy's skull behind his eye.

The only one of these kind of rifles that I know of that can even handle a blown primer is the Stevens,
at least the Stevens as sold by CPA. They will vent a blown primer out the bottom.

My vote would be to ban all smokeless load information in this forum EXCEPT for links to powder
manufacturer websites that are posting their load information.

[Delmonico]

As long as the poster quotes the source, I'm OK with smokeless loads being posted.  It is still up to anyone who wants to use it to double check it.

If anyone ever finds any posted data that is not from a know source or fits the perimiters please PM me.