Government Surplus

['Monterrey' Jack Brass]

Al,

The good Dr Bob has posed an interesting question to a different list we're both on and it deserves a lot of thought and whatever source documentation anyone on here can provide. This topic is apparently being discussed under a period blue-jean thread elsewhere on the CAS city site but I thought it should have it's own thread. As many of us in NCOWS could use whatever info is posted here I though it would be proper to start this post on the NCOWS CAS City site.

Following is the response I posted to Dr B regarding what I could quickly find out about government surplus being available to the consuming public of the time and employed in the 'old west', so it's really a two-part question. Please peruse and add to it with whatever documentation & research with sources you can add to this interesting and perhaps under-represented aspect of old west life.

YMH&OS,

'Monterrey' J. B.

<Note to Dr Bob Follows>
Dr B,

I think I have had some luck in finding at least a little documentation
toward government surplus being available and used at some level.

Though below documentation is from only one source/book I can say that
government surplus was available for purchase in several ways. So, though it
is only one source/book, the info below does prove that government surplus
was available from; a national mail order company, soldiers themselves, and
surplus sales. I can also say by the information below that it was actually
used. I dare not conjecture as to how much or little is was used, in what
quantities, in what years, and what types of items were most common. I
cannot make any claim about how much or little it was used without solid
documentation to support my argument. But I can glean that based on the little
documentation posted below is that government surplus was available for
purchase in some quantity at least from 1874 onward.

Also, arguably the most famous seller or surplus, Francis Bannerman, started
his surplus business after the Civil War. At some point after the war,
though I cannot say the exact date, Bannerman set up a store in New York
City. His catalog was started at some point in the 1880s and ran until mid
20th century though I do not know what the publish date or geographical coverage
of his initial catalogs was and how that impacted the West. However, the
fact that his store sold huge amounts of surplus lends credence to there
being an obvious demand for it and that it was being purchased and used.

I remember seeing the subject of civilians using surplus items in one of the
reminisces in my library but trying to find it quickly would prove fruitless
so please forgive my not posting it in this note. If anyone has further
documentation and references on this subject please post as this is an
excellent subject of discussion.

I See By Your Outfit:
(pg 31-32): "Cowboys could cheaply obtain military clothing from soldiers or
government surplus sales when available. Tollinson (John) had a friend buy
some wool army shirts and trousers from Ft. Boise, Idaho, explaining that
'Soldiers were generally broke, and always ready to sell their shirts and
pants, which made excellent garments for a cowpuncher to wear.'"
(pg 45): "Montgomery Ward listed surplus United States government sewn boots
in its 1874-1875 catalog."
(pg 66): A quote from Teddy Abbott - "I wore ..., a pair of government
overshoes..."
(pg 67): "Surplus military overcoats appeared in the Montgomery Ward Catalog
as early as 1874, but if near a military post, a cowboy might be able to buy
an overcoat from a soldier who needed some extra money or who had deserted."

[St. George]

St. George's Notes - XXIX - 'Army Surplus'...
« on: July 17, 2006, 12:57:36 PM »     

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This 'note' addresses a seldom-referred-to - but popular myth that there was a sort of thriving 'Army-Navy Surplus' sales system on the Frontier.

Far from it.

The Army - though it had won a long and bloody war - was left with the security of the Frontier and of the increasing stream of Emigrants opening up the West to contend with - and the Mission was woefully under-funded by an impecunious Congress who viewed the military as a drain on the economy.

There were mounds of equipment 'surplus to the needs' of the country - but there were also 'needs of the Service' to be met.

What better way to do that than to continue issue of already-paid-for uniforms and gear?

So - that's exactly what they did.

Granted - the many large cannon and much rolling stock - along with livestock - were sold, as was Government Whisky and numerous other 'stuff' - but that went to folks who were, for the most part - end users or brokers for same.

The average civilian didn't have the local Army-Navy Store - ala' a Bannerman's - until after the Spanish-American War.

Meanwhile, back at the Fort - troops on campaign were busily wearing out issue clothing at a furious rate and having it replaced with old, shoddy, Civil War stocks.

Then - there was another player in the game - the Bureau of Refugees, Freedmen and Abandoned Lands, often referred to as the Freedmen's Bureau, which was established in the War Department by an act of March 3, 1865.

The Bureau supervised all relief and educational activities relating to refugees and freedmen, including issuing 'rations, clothing and medicine'.

And where did they get 'those' things?

From the vast stockage still held by Uncle Sam.

Uniform and clothing items designated 'condemned' were given to this agency as well as others - though that title really only meant that there was no continued need for it or that it was in worn condition.

As an aside - the Bureau also assumed custody of confiscated lands or property in the former Confederate States and Border states, the District of Columbia and Indian Territory.

Never popular, and sometimes mis-managed - it was eventually disbanded after 1872.

By that time - the Uniforms were changing as well and the old stocks were depleted.

Could a civilian buy a rubber ground cloth or a blanket or canteens?

Certainly - in town - from a dealer in goods who would also buy from deserting or thieving soldiers.

As to other uniform items - not really, as the Quartermaster made no provision for it.

The soldier simply wasn't issued very much and what was issued as often of poor quality - thanks to the clothing contracts going to low bidders of the War.

He was also 'signed' for it and had to replace it out of pocket, should it go missing.

Not always the best option, for a man whose Congress may've forgotten to pay him for a couple of months.

Besides - better clothing was available at the Sutler's and in town.

Should you so desire - by all means, outfit your Impression with an old Army canteen and ground sheet - and a pullover shirt, as well.
And maybe a greatcoat, to boot - since there were enough of them floating around, heavy and cumbersome though they were, and besides - you could cut the bottom off, to better mount your horse.

You could've realistically bought them outright from your Supply Sergeant as you finished your enlistment - or from 'a guy in town' - but being able to walk into a store for a selection of those goods would be a few years in coming.

The Soldier - and the Army, itself - weren't looked upon fondly - unless needed.

Folks were tired of the War, and wanted fresh starts, and didn't want reminders.

Post-Civil War, the returning Veterans on both sides would wear what they were issued - but when it wore out - they went into a Dry Goods - or to a seamstress for their next outfit, and didn't look back, as they were too busy re-building America.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Delmonico]

I will add this, except in that very early post Civil War era, I don't see anything to speak of in clothing that could be considered surplus, firearms yes, clothing though is very rare, or at least in the thousands of pictures I've looked at.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Grant banned sales of surplus arms to civilians in 1870 and only years later was it rescinded, however there were dealers such as Hemann Boker who would "bid" on lots and these were sometimes sold but usually only to be resold to foreign governments. This is why the vast majority iof Spencers were in gov't hands until the mid 1870's.

['Monterrey' Jack Brass]

Fellows,

Thanks for the info - was hoping to see dates & sources/documentation details but sometimes that isn't a requirement for generall trends (?). However, I'll not paint too much in broad strokes and continue searching knowing that it was used at some level based on the references citing primary documentation listed in my initial posting. So perhaps there was no organized surplus system out west - just trying to see what level of use government items had with civilians, if nothing else, and how it was obtained.

I'm supposed to getting a reprint 1875 Montgomery Ward catalog in the mail this week and will see what the surplus items are in it. Hopefully it is a complete catalog with all the pages and not edited like the reprint 1886 Bloomingdale's catalog. I think this information will be of value regarding government surplus being available from at least one nation-wide mail order catalog. Also I hope to find what the 1880s Bannerman catalogs' distribution and audience were as this could provide some insight too - before the post Span-Am/1900 Bannerman Island era.

Your inputs are appreciated, as always, and hopefully I'll find (and others reading this thread) yet more examples of government items being used by civilians, with source info, dates, & etc.

YMH&OS,

Brass

[James Hunt]

Brass: In thinking this over I have always thought that the availability of military clothing on the frontier circa 1865 - 1900 was unquestioned, only to realize with this question that my thoughts are largely based on Rollinson's qoute in I See By Your Outfit, Abbott's single comment on early Texas hands (did they purchase their coats or were they left over stuff issued them?), a single picture of a Texas buffalo hunter wearing what looks to be an army sack, with light colored (kersey blue?) pants, and what looks like troopers boots, and a vague notion that somewhere else I have read that military surplus was available. Pretty scanty info to form a difinitive opinion.

Perhaps we need to consider what decade these folks were speaking of; Abbott cowboyed in the late 70's on, Mullins from the mid 80's on, and Rollinson from whence that quote came from in I See By Your Outfit didn't hit the range until 1990. By Rollinson's time Bannarman was well established in New York and the military was making significant changes in their uniforms, were they clearing out what was left of CW or early Indian War stores by then?

As for Bannarmen I knew nothing so I googled him and he appears to have been born in 1851, that would make him 25 in 1876 so I doubt he was a major player in military surplus yet (apparently he started out selling surplus rope and flags from the Navy).

The question remains a good one, and extends beyond clothing. What about the availability of camp gear, blankets, horse tack, etc? Did it play a major role at anytime - or was it rather minor - or did it simply not exist?

St. George: Your position is well thought out, and articulate but is this conjecture based on the facts you cite or is their some treatise on "Distribution of Surplus Military Clothing 1865 - 1890". I'm being absurd there, but what materials did you use to arrive at what appears to be your very reasonable conclusion? Some sort of documentation would put this question to bed.