51' Navy RM binding problem

[will52100]

I just got a new Cimmeron 51' navy Richard's Mason in 38 spcl. and it worked fine empty and with empty brass.  Upon firing it locks up tight after the first round.  If I move the cylinder a little by hand it works fine.  I took it down and noticed that the F hand was trying to come through the conversion ring instead of ridding behind it and binding up.  I squesed the hand spring a little more and that seemed to solve the problem unless the guns was pointed down.  I haven't had a chance to test fire it again so who knows?  The hand seemed like the upper part was ground a bit thinner than needed and that may be why it's binding up on the hand window in the conversion breach plate.  I've got anouther hand on order, so hopefully that will solve the problem.  I have to say that I'm a bit disapointed, this is the third gun I've got from Cimmeron and the second I've had trouble with.  The first had a 44 cal. cylinder and a 45 cal. barrel!

Sound like too much side play on the hand to you?

Thanks

[Abilene]

Howdy Will,
When you say "locks up tight" do you mean that you can't pull back the hammer?  Or can you pull it back but it locks up before full cock?  Assuming the former, I'm thinking that it's not the hand.  One of my '51 R-M's does the same thing with the hand hanging in the window when the cylinder is out, but that's because it is able to go too far forward with the cylinder out and hence bind in the slot.  With the cylinder in and pushing the hand back, no problem.  And as you said, your gun works fine empty and with brass.

What does the fired empty look like?  Has the primer backed out any (too light of a load) and have drag marks?  Also, some of these guns have really sharp firing pins (mine did) and need to be stoned a little more blunt so they don't pierce primers.  If your primers pierced, they could be flowing around the firing pin and or into the FP hole in the frame.  You didn't mention if you are shooting BP, but too tight of a cylinder gap (wedge in too far) can lock up a gun after one shot.

Good luck.

[will52100]

The primmers arn't pierced, though they are deep strikes.  I may have had the wedge a bit too loose, I backed the set screw off one turn and bumped it out a bit.  It only does it while firing, with both smokless and black powder rounds.  They were hot enough to flatten the primmer properly, no drag marks around the recoil plate and no upsetting around the firing pin hole.  Action feels a bit rough even empty.  I tested out anouther hand from one of my opentops and it worked fine, no binding.  I checked the thickeness of the opentop's hand and it was a good bit thicker than the 51's.  I'll know more when I go to test fire it today.  I personaly think it's a hand/timming problem.  After firing I can rotate the cylinder by hand just a bit and it functions normaly untill I let the hammer fall and fire again.  I could be wrong but it feels like the upper part of the F hand isn't engaging properly.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Happened to me, and with a '62 Police Cap'nball.  Try loosening the wedge a bit.  That worked for me.

[will52100]

I went to test fire it again and with smokless magtec ammo it ran perfectly.  With my black powder reloads in 38LC it would sometimes work fine, other times bind up.  I'm getting a few pierced primmers, and the recoil from the bp is slightly stouter than the smokless.  I'll take a little off the firing pin and give the gun anouther slight deburing and try it again.  I still think I need a new widder hand, I'll know for sure when it gets in.

[Abilene]

Will,
Now that you've narrowed it down to BP rounds, I'll go into a little more detail about my similar problem.  Of my four '51 R-M's only one had this problem, and it also ran fine with smokeless ammo.  The cylinder to barrel gap was the issue, along with the fact that the cylinder and barrel weren't fitted quite as well on this one.  The fouling from one shot would usually be enough to keep the cylinder from turning (I could cock it part way before it locked up).  This was with the wedge just barely in, couldn't back it out any further.  I had to take a bit of metal off of the back of the forcing cone to open up the cylinder to barrel gap a bit.  The gap looked okay but still had problems.  Now this gun had a bit of end shake on the cylinder.  I noticed that when the gun was cocked, the hand would push the cylinder forward, decreasing the cylinder to barrel gap.  So I bent the hand spring to have less forward pressure on the hand.  Combination of that and opening the cylinder gap fixed the problem for me.  Hope that helps.  Good luck and keep us posted.

[will52100]

I think I've got your gun!  Only differance is that when It binds it does it at the start of the cycle and if I rotate the cylender by hand just a bit the hand will easily turn it the rest of the way with no problem.  The Cylinder has very little end shake though.  I smothed everything up and that helped some.  The spring cracked on the hand so I need a new one anyway.  If I held the gun muzzel up when cycling it function fine most times, muzzel down it would bind up everytime, this is with the spring weakended.  It's got a very tight barrel to chamber gap, may need a little opening up, it's tighter than my 73' or any of my other guns.