Conversion Question

[1860]

Hi,

I have a 20 year old Pietta 58 Remington, it was my first cowboy gun, still works fine.  I'd like to convert it to cartridge without altering the basic gun, I want to also shoot cap-n-ball.  Since I'm a colt guy, open tops, I need a little guidence.
I'm real handy with 6guns so if I have to swap out parts like the hand and bolt it won't be a problem...


What is available and where do I go (links) to look at it.  If anyone has some pics of what a converted one looks like that would also be great.

I'll have more questions after i see what is involved..

thanks

60

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

Both Kirst and R & D make drop-in conversions that really do "drop-In" with very little work, if an, to get them to work well. Mine have all dropped right in and aligned right and worked like they should. I have an R &D 44 Rem. C.F. in an original remy right now ahs She ROCKS!
River Junction carry's Kirst, so does Old West Moulds here is their email: allisonmonument@aol.com. also carry them. Taylors sells R & D.

Either will work fine. and are available in 38 or 45 LC, and both are available in 44 Rem/Colt C.F. (44 Colt brass, Old west moulds Heeled bullet) I shoot the 44 Rem.C.F. and I love the cartridge.

[knucklehead]

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,4434.htm

check out the above link.
kirst cart conversion is a drop in conversion cylinder. you dont have to do anything to your gun.
and best of all you can go back to cap and ball by switching out the cylinders.
the .45 long colt drops right in and nothing else needs to be done. the cylinder may need some light filing done so it will drop in. i have herd about this but i haven't had  any problems with my converison in my 58 rem.

if you are looking to convert a .36 caliber then you need to read some more on this forum.
the .36 caliber uses .375 round balls and the .38 conversion uses .358 bullets. you will need to modify something so do a search on this forum for converisons.

the following picture is from buffalo arms websight.
the conversion cylinder is about $250.00

[Marshal Tac]

You didn't specify what caliber your '58 was in, so I am assuming it's a .45. If that is the case, look hard at the R&D conversion cyliner. It is about as "drop in" as you will find, and is the easiest way to start shooting that gun with them new fangled cartridges... all you got to do to go back to a cap and ball gun is drop the cylinder and swap it for the one with nipples.....

The cylinder conversions are not cheap, but you won't be disappointed. I got two and I LOVE them.

[Montana Slim]

My Dad's R&D (for his new Pietta NM) dropped right in to my 30 yr. old, bobbed-barrel Pietta .44 & shot like a champ.

Slim

[1860]

Thanks to all, this gives me a place to get started looking.  The Kirst looks pretty easy to use.  I'll get back to ya when I've done some homework...

Thanks again

1860

[Flint]

I have both Kirst and R&D, and I prefer the R&D, as the Kirst, in my experience, required more fitting to turn smoothly, and are harder on the original Italian soft metal hand.

The Kirst is a 5-shot, with a 6th "safe" rest position.  The R&D has 6 chambers, with one marked by a different color firing pin retainer to remain empty for a 5 shot CAS loading.  On both brands, in current production, you can see the brass rim to verify the empty chamber.

The Kirst has one firing pin, which is staked in place  The Kirst backplate does not revolve.  The R&D has 6 firing pins, as the backplate revolves with the cylinder.  The R&D firing pins are retained by threaded ferrules, so are removable/replacable without much fuss.  The R&D chambers are angled about 1/2 degree to fit the rims in the small Remington cylinder diameter, which does not affect accuracy.  The Kirst chambers are more than 60 degrees apart, to fit in the rims, so the 6th safety position is a smaller segment, making the rachet star unequal in that position, and that's where I had problems.

Other shooters don't seem to have had a problem with Kirsts, however.  The Kirst has a groove cut into the backplate to ease it past the nose of the hand in the frame (from the right), and may insert more smoothly for that reason, as long as you orient the backplate/cylinder assembly as you insert them.

The R&D, inserted it from the right at half cock, just as with the percussion cylinder, must be rotated clockwise as you insert it to drive the hand back onto the frame.  If you insert the cylinder from the left, with the hammer down, but  pulled back just enough to clear its nose, you set the cylinder on the locking bolt from the left and roll it into position to reinsert the cylinder pin.

Practice makes perfect in either method.  See Clint Eastwood in "Pale Rider" for a demonstration.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I had to file down the cylinder bolt on it's edge so it would drop evenly in the cylinder notch on my Kirst for my Uberti 58 Rem- It works fine now.

I had the same thing on my Kirst. Rather than modify the pistol too much, I finally cut ramps leading into the notches. No more over-roatation. Good lock-up. You can see the ramps in the photo.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I don't want to hi-jack this thread, but the cylinder notches on the C&B cylinder for my Uberti 58 Rem are longer, deeper & wider. The Kirst cylinder notches are just a bit smaller I didn't want to modify it too much because I want both the original C&B cylinder & 45 Colt Kirst conversion to function properly.

This is why I cut the ramps. I didn't want to modify the gun beyond still working with the original cylinders.

[1860]

Will,

I've been looking around the links from above and i see by your pick you have the one with the loading gate and ejector rod, very nice.  I know I'll have to file out the frame for a loading port, did you just cold blue it when done?  From looking at the pics of the ejector rod, do you have to file a knotch in the load lever to hold the little tab on the end?

If not too much trouble, do you have a pic of the ejector rod part of your gun?  I'm still thinking on this project but I like the idea of reloading without taking the cylinder out.  Of course, Clint didn't seem to mind...LOL

Thanks

60

[1860]

Flint,

On either of these conversions, the cylinder comes out with the back plate I assume..?

IF so, do they separate easily for reloading?  (and go back together)...

Thanks

60

[1860]

Thanks again to all for the good info, this is starting to look like a fun project...

Does shooting BP cartridge loads with either of these conversions foul the base pin and faster than Cap-n-ball loads do?

Might as well ask, how quick (# of rounds) does the cylinder bind up on the one you are using...?

One more: With a ball, my 58 is very accurate, how do they do with a cartridge/conical?  I'll start by using those big groove bullets and BP.

I'm going to do this conversion, Hopefully it will fix an issue I've had.  I have a .45 1873 Winchester and a SAA (EMF) to go with it.  I never could do much good with the SAA, from a bench it shoots fine but off hand the targets are safe.  I am getting to the point where I'm gonna get rig of the Colt and deal the Winchester into something that matches my other revolvers calibers, (38 or 44).  If this 58 conv works out I'll be good to go because I could always shoot this revolver very well in an off hand position, nice balance and long sight plane.

Thanks

60

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I've been looking around the links from above and i see by your pick you have the one with the loading gate and ejector rod, very nice.  I know I'll have to file out the frame for a loading port, did you just cold blue it when done?  From looking at the pics of the ejector rod, do you have to file a knotch in the load lever to hold the little tab on the end?

If not too much trouble, do you have a pic of the ejector rod part of your gun?  I'm still thinking on this project but I like the idea of reloading without taking the cylinder out.  Of course, Clint didn't seem to mind...LOL

I shot a whole yearly match with one pistol and two cylinders one time just for kicks. 10 stages in two days. It was great fun.

I touched up the port area with cold blue, as you guessed. I cut it with a die grinder to rough it in then finished up with a dremel. Be sure to put masking tape over everything you don't want to scratch. That dremel might walk over the edge and it's nice to hit the tape instead of the finish. You could do it by hand, but with the power tools, it was only about a two-hour job.

Here's a close-up of the ejector. I did have to file a notch in the loading lever for the end of the ejector rod. The spring for the latch is in the lever about there, so I couldn't cut it too deep. Instead, I cut a shallow notch and thinned down the end of the lever some. I also filed the ends of the ejector housing at an angle like the originals were. To do that, I had to take the lever out by cutting the end off slightly to remove the ring that retains it. When done, I cut a new ring with a tubing cutter, like the original Kirst one was.

[1860]

Will,

That's about how I figured it was done, I have an air powered die grinder and Dremel, probably more wheels that I should be allowed.  I use duct tape to mask off the areas around where I'm grinding, it's thick enough to take care of a minor oops if the tool is not all that course.

Thanks for the Pics

60

[warbucks16]

Marshall Wingam:

I have a Kirst Remmie that over rotates occasionaly. I am interested in your solution.

Can you tell me how deep and how wide you cut the notches.

Regards,

Warbuck16

[Flint]

Over rotation is usually the fault of too weak a hand spring, and that (spring) is a problem with most Italian Remingtons, and their weakest link.  Replace the spring with a stronger one (many posters have had good luck making the spring from a Bobby Pin).  The VTI replacement springs are not much better, just newer.

Seems the hand acts like a brake, slowing the cylinder's spin some.  Strengthening the bolt spring doesn't do much beyond prematurely wearing out the hammer's cam.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Over rotation is usually the fault of too weak a hand spring, and that (spring) is a problem with most Italian Remingtons, and their weakest link.  Replace the spring with a stronger one (many posters have had good luck making the spring from a Bobby Pin).  The VTI replacement springs are not much better, just newer.

Seems the hand acts like a brake, slowing the cylinder's spin some.  Strengthening the bolt spring doesn't do much beyond prematurely wearing out the hammer's cam.

This wasn't the case with mine. I checked the spring and it was fine. I even changed it with one of my others but the symptom was still there. The R&D cylinders, as well as the originals, stopped and locked up nicely (I tried 4 different R&D and 4 different percussion cylinders). I measured the Kirst cylinder notches and they were too narrow. The bolt would drop a little into the notch but not enough to stop the cylinder on all of the positions. I didn't change the bolt much because the problem was the cylinder, not the mechanism. Some of the notches were wider than others. Overall, there was up to .005 variation in them. By cutting the ramps, it gave the bolt a chance to drop far enough to stop the cylinder. The bolt was narrow enough to drop into the notches to the bottom once the cylinder had stopped.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I have a Kirst Remmie that over rotates occasionaly. I am interested in your solution.

Can you tell me how deep and how wide you cut the notches.

I had a sanding drum for my Dremel that had just a little over 9/16" diameter. I did it in steps until it got to where it worked. As I recall, it wasn't much, only about 1/4 the depth of the notch. I wasn't too scientific about it, I just wanted to give the bolt a head start into the notch.

[warbucks16]

Marshall:

Thank you for the info.  After I read your last post I measured the width of the notches and there is a very small variance. I don't have a micrometer but according to my ruler one notch is about 1/32 of an inch smaller. I tried changing the hand spring and then the whole hand but the occasional over rotation still occured. I will try the ramp.

I also found that by slightly backing out the bolt spring screw  :)about a 1/2 turn that it occured less often but still occured.

Thanks to all for the help, I will let you know how it goes.

Warbucks16

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Thank you for the info.  After I read your last post I measured the width of the notches and there is a very small variance. I don't have a micrometer but according to my ruler one notch is about 1/32 of an inch smaller. I tried changing the hand spring and then the whole hand but the occasional over rotation still occured. I will try the ramp.

1/32" is .03125. That's a whole lot of variance. It may pay to borrow a mike and check it. If it's that big, maybe wherever you bought it will send you a replacement. By width, I assume you checked the narrow dimension, not the length of the notch from the front of the cylinder to the back. The length shouldn't matter too much as long as there is room for the bolt.