Historic Sharps price?

[Henry4440]

A standard Sharps Model 1874 weighed about 9 1/2 to l0 pounds with 30" octagon barrel. At the beginning of the hide hunting era the company charged $1 per inch of barrel over 30", and $1 per pound for rifles weighing over 12 pounds. By the late 1870s they just tacked a 20 percent surcharge on special order rifles. By an 1878 Sharps catalog, a standard Model 1874 with 30" barrel cost $38.
Remington had a similar policy according to their 1878 catalog. A standard No. 1 Rolling Block came with a 26" barrel but longer ones could be had for an extra $1 per every 2" of length. They also advertised their rifles could weigh as light as 7 1/2 pounds or as heavy as 15 pounds, but make no mention of how the heavier barrels were priced. By the same catalog a standard Rolling Block with 26" barrel was priced at $30.

In the 1870's Frank Mayer's Sharps rifle, complete with bullet mold and reloading dies, cost $225 with an extra charge of $80 for the scope, at a time when a buffalo skinner averaged $38.50 a week.

I think there is a little difference between $30 and $225.
Any suggestion?

[Delmonico]

Depends on if you had it shipped to you and picked it up at the railroad or if you bought it because someone had it in stock at someplace a distance from the RR and you needed it and had to pay the price because otherwise you did without.  Look at what some folks payed for S&W 29's in the early 1970's because they saw Dirty Harry and just had to have one.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Historians have discounted much of what Frank Mayer wrote as he was extremely elderly when he put pen to paper. 

[Henry4440]

Historians have discounted much of what Frank Mayer wrote as he was extremely elderly when he put pen to paper. 

Ah, but the first part could or would be correct?

[Fox Creek Kid]

Yes.

[Delmonico]

That is still the cost though at the factory, any shipping and mark up by any third parties ran the cost up.  Also even though there were many Rail Roads, there was little inter-connecting done like today, when one road ended often the goods had to be transported by wagon to the next station to be able to run it further west on another line, this could happen more than once, plus in much of the hide hunting era there was still not a bridge between Nebraska and Iowa or Kansas and Missouri, so goods had to be ferried across the Missouri River.  Add trasportation by freight wagon through sometimes hostile Indian Cournty to a trading post in buffalo country and the cost would run up, even though Sharps did give dealers discounts on case lots of rifles. 

Some also think Frank Mayer may have suffered more from a biographer that didn't have a good understanding of many things including firearms, not uncommon among writers, including Marie Sandoz.  Many point to the meantion of patching bullets with tanned antelope hide that Mayer is said to have meantioned.  well no not on Sharps bullets, but not uncommon on muzzel-loaders, something that may have been mis understood by the writer.  If the Sharps and the "loading outfit" included a couple kegs of good powder, a large supply of lead, primers and cases, plus did he pay for it in gold or with paper money?  Paper money was often discounted up to 30-40% over gold money out in the west.  Add all this up and the price could have reached the stated figure. 

As always a full knowledge of the history of the region including the economic factors can make what many will discount as a story by a senile old man become much more in the realm of possible.  Did he pay that much for his Sharps and loading outfit?  Well we can not be sure unless someone can come up with a reciept to prove it one way or the other, but I sure ain't going to say no.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Hunters paid retail prices. Sometimes they had to pay FOB on delivery if they made a special order through a dealer, which was rare. All theories aside, the following book is chock full of receipts and a plethora of primary source info.


http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_112&products_id=8295&osCsid=bd2b7a8c52abb190586faeda64e2fe2e

[Delmonico]

Retail at Zimmers in Dodge City, higher at a trading camp on the Sweetwater down in Texas.  Add what I meantioned as part of the "reloading outfit" deduct the differance between gold and paper money, or perhaps youdidn't know green backs often were not worth the face value in many parts of the west.  But belive what you want not everything sold for just retail in the west away from the Rail Road.  Canned goods which cost 10=20 cents a can at the Rail Road often sold for a dollar a can in hide camps, mining camps and other similar places because of transportation costs.  But heck I would guess someone would be glad to ship rifles, powder, lead and such for free.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Read the book, Del. 

[Delmonico]

One book, written by one person, always, exactly this way black and white.  Yep, that is true history, always has been always will be.

Roll up yer sleeves, branch out and really do some research some time, you might decide there are a lot of theings that don't always seem to be exactly what some one simply wrote down and put in a book.  Makes one wonder sometimes was the book written to really inform folks as to exactly what history was or did the author want to sell lots of them and make lots of money.  To really understand history you have to study everything.  If your book says every Sharps made was sold only at retail no matter where it had been hauled to beyond the factory, then I know I won't waste any money on it, would wonder what else in it was BS.

[St. George]

Settle down.

Retail was retail - but shipping costs did drive up price - as did location of the buyer, trust of the currency, and rarity/desireablity of the weapon.

In that light - the era we're talking about of the Buffalo Hunter time frame - a complete outfit was a true high-demand item, and it was a seller's market.

Back East, where the rifle didn't have the value as a 'tool' that it did on the Frontier - pricing closer to normal shelf stock was to be expected.

Using a single-source reference is all well and good - so long as the author did 'his' homework, and has the bibliography to back it up.

After all - reference books have to start somewhere and all they do is get better, as folks dig ever deeper to winnow out more arcana.

The only way to ascertain 'what' was paid on the Frontier is going to be a sales receipt or diary entry.

What was paid in a shop back in the 'civilized' East will differ, but not far from the price shown in the catalog.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Fox Creek Kid]

The only way to ascertain 'what' was paid on the Frontier is going to be a sales receipt or diary entry.

The aforementioned book has primary source info. It is not opinion, conjecture or theory. For example, the two Cator brothers kept all their receipts for the years they hunted and miraculously they have survived. There are also several Sharps factory letters and invoices that show what the guns cost. For example, there is a table that shows Frank Conrad (Conrad's Store in Ft. Griffin, TX in the heart of buffalo country) ordered a grand total of 182 Sharps rifles, all between $40 & $50. Conrad received a 30% discount off retail from Sharps due to volume. Again, I reiterate: it's in the book.

[Delmonico]

What about the mention of prices far beyond retail at little posts such as Adobe Walls and Mobeetie?  Accounts of buffalo hunters and many others document this well.

[St. George]

OK, guys - this is devolving...

I'm getting complaints, and you know my dislike of discord.

Both of you take a minute to think about the other guys' point of view, and you'll see that there's merit in each argument.

Knock off the sniping, or I'll delete the post.

Scouts Out!

[Will Ketchum]

OK, guys - this is devolving...

I'm getting complaints, and you know my dislike of discord.

Both of you take a minute to think about the other guys' point of view, and you'll see that there's merit in each argument.

Knock off the sniping, or I'll delete the post.

Scouts Out!

Amen St. George!  I have enjoyed the information presented but the discussion has deterioated in to a P**sing contest. 

Will Ketchum

[River City John]

To add some human interest related to the subject, and from a completely different viewpoint. (Don't get all excited, no mention of arms, prices, or documentation of that kind.)

I have a small series of letters, spanning 1876-1879, written to my great-grandmother from her sister-in-law Bessie Gibler, when she and her husband Howard (my g-g's brother) were living near Cawker City, Kansas.
Howard was a frontiersman and hunter, and he would be out for the winter hunt from November til late March.



                                                               
                                                                                                                           Cawker City, Kansas
                                                                                                                           March 9th, 1879

        Dear Sister Nellie,
       Your most welcome letter of 3rd inst. was received yesterday and I was very glad indeed to hear from you, as I get so very lonesome sometimes and it seems almost as if you and I were already acquainted as I have heard Howard speak so often of his sister Nellie (and who by the way he seems to think is just about right.)
      You spoke of having heard from Howard about a month ago. I also had a letter from him then since which time I have heard nothing. It makes his being away so much worse on account of hearing from him so seldom. I am expecting a letter from him every day now to say that he will be home soon. There are a lot of Indians encamped near here waiting for him to come, they want to tan his robes. They have waited already 6 weeks and I guess they are getting tired out as the Chief came in yesterday to see if I could tell him when he would be here. They said they would wait 2 weeks longer and then they should go home.
       I don't believe John (younger brother to Howard and Nellie) likes Buffalo hunting as well as he expected as Howard wrote in one letter that John said he "would like to know where in He-l the fun came in Buffalo hunting." which is also about the way I feel about it. but I think Howard must certainly enjoy it or he would not follow it so much. They are doing real well this winter.
      Antrim is well he was 2 years old the 25th of last month which was also the 4th anniversary of our wedding day. He talks quite plain for his age which I expect will greatly please Howard as he would not try to talk before he left. We have a kind of a picture gallery here in town now and if I could get him to sit still long enough I will have his picture taken soon and send it to you.
      I wish you would make up your minds to come to Kansas. I think you would like it here, at least every one does that comes and I don't suppose you would be an exception. It does not seem as if a town could grow as fast as ours has in the last 2 months, we will have the cars running here inside of 2 months.
     We have had considerable cold weather here this winter, but not much snow, only 2 or 3 days sleighing and then not good.
     I have been intending to write to you all winter, but kept neglecting it, but I hope you will pardon me this time and I'll try and not be so negligent again, so hoping this will find you all well, and also to hear from you again soon.
                                                      I remain your Affectionate Sister,
                                                       Bessie Gibler



   

[Delmonico]

Thanks John, a nasty job at best that could reap great profits if done right.

[Henry4440]

The Buffalo Harvest
by Frank H. Mayer with Charles B. Roth

Let me tell you about the first Sharps of mine.
I bought it second-hand from Colonel Richard Irving Dodge (there was a man!). Sportsman, military leader, expert rifleman, skilled hunter, gentleman -- to me Colonel Dodge will always typify everything fine in American manhood. Besides, he had several Sharps rifles, I had none, so I set out to convince him we ought to share the wealth a little bit. It wasn't easy. The rifle I set my eyes on was practically new, a .40-90-420, as I have told you. It was a beautiful piece, with its imported walnut stock and forearm, and its shiny blue 32-inch barrel. At $125 I considered it a bargain. This Sharps weighed 12 pounds. On the barrel I mounted a full-length one-inch tube telescope, made by A. Vollmer of Jena, Germany. Originally the 'scope, a 20-power, came with plain crosshairs. These I supplemented with upper and lower stadia hairs, set so they would cover a vertical space of thirty inches at 200 yards.

After a year or two, having plenty of buffalo dollars in my jeans, I talked myself into believing that I needed an extra rifle in reserve -- so I bought two. One was a .40-70-320 -- a light little gun for deer and antelope but too impotent for buff. The other was another .40-90-420. Both used bottle-necked cartridges; don't ask me how I fell for that sort of thing after vowing I was off bottle-necks for life. I paid $100 for the .40-70, $115 for the .40-90 -- current prices then. Prices on Sharps declined rapidly after the buffalo years, and I saw $40, and $50 -- identical with the guns I paid $100 and $125 for a couple of years earlier. I never liked either of these guns, because the bottle-necked cartridges began giving me trouble.

http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/resources/archives/five/buffalo.htm

[Yellowhouse Sam]

Prices were and are now variable due to regionality.  Example, nearly everything is higher in Alaska because of transportation.

A final thought on Mayer...he may well have paid those prices as there are ticket scalpers at every ball game including the hide trade.  Mayers book was actually written from notes compiled by Charles Roth who also wrote Hidalgo as gospel although its known as a major pack of tall tales and outright fabrication.  So, my take on Mayer is that you also accept Hidalgo at face value, I've got some West Texas beach front property for sale.

P.S. It looks like the 40-70SBN that Mayer said he owned may have popped up.  Check out the spring, 2008 issue of Blackpowder Cartridge News.