44-40 vs 45LC for a Lady

[twhman]

Hello,

I have been reading this site for a few weeks.   The members here seem very friendly so I fiqure I would join so I am new to CAScity but I am not a stranger on other shooting forums.  I have a number of guns mostly shotguns for skeet and some modern pistols.

  I have been trying to get my wife to shoot with me - and I have been slightly successful - she has a S&W 9mm that she will shoot occasionally and has no problem with the recoil.  However, I had the new Ruger catalog laying around and she came up to me the other morning asking me about a case hardend single action in 45LC.  She said she would be interested in a nice looking gun like that to shoot and asked if that would be to much gun for her.

I looked in my reloading manual and compared the 45LC to the 44mag and 44 special bullet weight and velocity and as I expected it was significantly less than both.  I told her I was not that familiar with 45LC so I was not sure but based on the ballistics it appeared like she could handle it.

Sorry for the long lead in; here is my question.  My wife likes the look of the older single action revolvers and would like to try shooting them.  We also have horses (TWHs) and she is a avid rider.  I fiqure I don't mind adding another gun to the collection but I want to know about 45LC - what is it like to shoot compared to a 9mm?  I also know that the 44-40 is out there too so that maybe another option.  As I said I am not that familiar with these older style guns and calibers so there maybe other options in more modern calibers in the older style guns that would be good for her.  She likes the looks of case hardend single actions.  (I on the other hand am looking at the new Ruger Redhawk 4" in 44 mag and maybe a Marlin 1894 in 44 mag as a companion.).

While I welcome all opinions maybe some of the ladys on this site could chime in on these guns and calibers, what they shoot and why.

[Marshal Deadwood]

Sir, 'most' of the Single Action Armys (peacemakers), as well as most 'Navy' or Open Tops configurations of the 'colt conversions',  of various manufactures can be purchased in .357/.38special or in .38special . Perhaps this might be a consideration ?
There are also 'lady' sized revolvers in the 'Peacemaker' type frames on the Cimarron site.
My wife loves to shoot my larger caliber .44/.45  handguns. But, perhaps it would be more purdent to start in the .357/.38speical for her 'first' gun?
Check out Cimarron Arms or Taylors and Co., of Winchester, Virginia for their offerings.

Hope this helps.

Marshal Deadwood

[Camille Eonich]

What Marshal said.  Ruger makes all if it's single actions in .357 as well as .45.  She'll probably enjoy shooting a .38 in the .357 a little more than she will the .45s.  She'll be able to concentrate a little more on hitting what she is shooting rather than holding on to the gun.

[Forty Rod]

If there's even a chance that she'll get involved with mounted shooting she'll be best off with a .45 from the beginning.

They use blanks in mounted shooting, and .45 can be loaded to give less recoil than a factory .38 /.357.

Much as I wouldn't have one myself, I think I'll have to recommend a Ruger New Vaquero with a 4-3/4" barrel.  Tough, reliable, well balanced, and ready to go right out of the box.

[Silver Creek Slim]

twhman,
First of all, welcome to CAS City. I hope you enjoy your stay.

I would advise someone who is new to single action pistols to look at Rugers like your wife was doing. Smart lady. You don't have to pull the hammer to half-cock to load it. It is safe to carry six bullets in it if you want, because of the transfer bar safety system. Also, they are built like tanks to withstand a lot of shooting. The New Vaqueros are very close to the size of Colts and Colt clones, so they will weigh about the same. If you take two Ruger (or another manufacturer's) pistols that are the same except for caliber, for example one in .357/.38 and the other in. 45, the .45 pistol would weigh less because the hole in the bore and the holes in the cylinders are larger, hence less metal. This may be a consideration depending on your wife's arm strength.

You said, "I looked in my reloading manual...", so I assume you will be reloading for this pistol. A quick search of available .45 caliber pistol lead bullets on Midwayusa.com shows the following grain weights: 155, 160, 175, 180, 200, 225, 230, 250, 255, 300+. So you can cater the bullet to your needs. The lighter the bullet, the less recoil. Conversely, the heavier the bullet, the more recoil. The "standard" .357/.38 bullet weigh is 158 grs. So, you can download a .45 Colt to the level of a .38 Special if you want.

I load both .44-40 and .45 Colt. .45 Colt is easier to load if you use carbide sizing dies. When using these dies, you don't need to use case sizing lube. But, the .44-40 needs case sizing lube.

My wife has a pair of Bisley Vaqueros in .45 Colt. I load her shells with 200 gr bullets on top of 5 grs of Hodgdon Clays. They are mild loads compared to my Black Powder 255 gr bullet loads.

Hope this helps.

Slim

[BlaiseNSaddles]

I have 357, 45 and recently 44 (mag but use specials).
I agree with the above if mounted is in the future go for the 45.
One can get special 45 Cowboy brass and put a 165 gr Orgeon Cast bullet over it and have a very mild load.

I would suggest though to try various types to see what fits her hand the best and what feels right.  I personally much prefer the New Vaquero XR3 style grips and the mid size slightly lighter frame.

For pure pointability I like the open-tops in 44 spl which can be downloaded with 44 Colt or even 44 Russian.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Howdy, twhman AND your wife!

Welcome!

Let me second what both Slim and 40Rod have said.  The Rugers are FINE guns and would be great starter pistols.  As well as finishing pistols.  I said that tongue in cheek, but, unless you want togo the full authenticity route, the Rugers are good for life, not JUST starting guns.  It's similar to SASS, but the NCOWS organization is geared toward authenticity, BUT Rugers (both new and old versions) are legal for shooting.

45 Colt IS easier to load - 44-40 isn't hard, but there are some things to watch out for that don't apply to 45 Colt.

Take Care!

Jeff  "Steel Horse Bailey"

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I agree that every shooter NEEDS at least one Ruger, preferably MORE!  They are virtually unbreakable.  I use a Single-six for .22 practice, and a .38/.357 Blackhawk for just about anything, and .a pair of 44-40 Vaqueros' for standby match pistols.

I've tire-kicked the NEW VAQUERO somewhat, and would go with it, if I didn't have so many Rugers already.  .45 or .38/.357 are ideal choices, each in its own way!

Check out load data from the powder companys.  Hodgdon's Cowboy Data is where I'd go, for light competition loads.

[Camille Eonich]

I'm very curious about why all of you guys are recommending .45s for his lady.  He hasn't mentioned mounted shooting at all.  If he did buy her .45s and download them anywhere close to .38s then many of you would scoff at him and he would still put out more money loading the .45s than he would the .38s.  Even the lightest loaded .45s have more recoil than a mid range CAS .38.  158s are still a high end load for a CAS pistol round.

Many ladies have stepped down to .32s but for most there is no use in that.  The .38/.357 is a good all around caliber.

[Marshal Deadwood]

What Miz Camille said. Im a Warhog shooter but all arent. And the guy, again like Miz Cammille said, didnt mentiong CAS shooting at all.
Perhaps the lady would perfer .45s, but, the .357/.38 is a very valid consideration. Cheaper to load/purchase pre-loaded, and if one is concerned with 'nand canon' recoil, there is a law of physics that kicks in here. If you can dowload a .45,,,you can dowload a .38 even more, and for a LOT less money. Plus , if recol/hot loads isnt a consideration, she can always go .357, and still for less.
Myself, being addicted to .45's doesnt mean I dont see the virtue and wiisdom of the lady going .38/.357.
Im not saying she shouldnt consider a .45, but that she needs to be aware of all options. The .38, loaded mild,offeres next to no recoil, and the .357 full power loads aint nuffun' to sneeze at.

First impressions will decide if the lady lilkes shooting or will not like shooting. If she indeed gets into shooting, she will still have a 'speed gun' even if she decides later to purchase a .45. It would be more expident for her to find out that she WANTS a .45, than to find out she NEEDS a .38.

Just a'ramblin' folks,,,nio foul intended.

Marshal Deadwood

[twhman]

Folks thanks for the welcome.  I appreciate all the good feedback.  I think that the post suggesting a .38/.357 is an excellent idea.  I did not know that Ruger made the Vaquero in that but I just checked their website and see that the "New Vaquero" does come in 357/38.  I already have a S&W .357 in a eight shot revolver so I stock ammo.  I think less recoil would be best once she likes the 357/38 and decides she wants a 45LC then we will just have to buy another gun ... dang

If I want a good quality reliable .38/357 that is color cased what are my options besides Ruger?  I know there are alot of imports but I don't know if these are as reliable as a Ruger.

The folks here are great...thanks for all the information.

[Silver Creek Slim]

This is what's so great about CAS City. We can have different opinions and not get in a shooting match o'er it. 

Since you already have a .357 and ammo, then a .357 single action would be a good choice. If you are going to use it for CAS, you will need to download the velocities to .38 Special levels.

There are a lot of choices in reliable single action revolvers. The first three have the transfer bar safety system like the Rugers. But, the hammer needs to go to half-cock to load it. If your thumb slips off the hammer while doing this, the hammer will not hit the firing pin.
Taurus Gaucho
Made in Brazil.

EAA Bounter Hunter
Made in Germany.

Heritage These are Piettas made in Italy.

Then there are the Italian Colt clones that do not have the transfer bar safety system. These are to be loaded with only 5 rounds with the hammer on an empty chamber. As far as I know, EMF and Charles Daly are made by Pietta. The rest are made by Uberti.

EMF, Charles Daly, Cimarron, Navy Arms, Taylor's, Uberti USA.

I might have missed some. It's probably more choices than you wanted.

Slim

[Forty Rod]

Cammie, he mentioned in the 4th paragraph, 2nd line that they "have horses and she is an avid rider".  Just stands to reason she may want to take a shot (pun most ceratinly intended) at mounted shooting.

[Camille Eonich]

Missed that part 40.  Thanks! 

[Lou Graham]

I'm a lady and I shoot 'em all -- .38, 44-40 and .45....
By far my personal favorite is 44-40.

disclaimer: I am a die-hard black powder shooter and my 44-40 cases get FILLED.  Makes quite a display.  

I usually only shoot the .45 revolver (along with my real Colt's Model of 1911) with smokeless for Wild Bunch matches 'cause that ain't a BP type match.

If your lady wants to use a two-handed grip, the bigger guns (like Rugers) are fine.  A smaller gun or different grip shape may be needed to use for one-handed shooting if she wants to go that route.  The mounted shooters use one hand.   Depending on the size and shape of her hands, some will fit better than others.  Having enough thumb to reach the hammer without having to shift your grip is the key to success.

I use my .38's for shooting gunfighter style. (one gun in each hand alternating shots)  I would love to do that with the 44-40's but I can't get to the hammer without shifting my grip, plus it takes two hands for me to control the gun.  That's something to think about.

Some ladies just don't like a lot of noise and recoil, some do.  The 44-40 is sort of a waste unless you load black powder.  The ammo is expensive if storebought and not as easy to reload.  The reason for the 44-40 is it's so easy to keep the guns running and clean up after shooting BP.  That's not a concern with smokeless, so if BP is not in her future, I'd stick with straight wall cases -- either the .38 or .45.  Whatever caliber she picks, make sure the grip style is comfortable for her hands.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

If you are looking for a Ruger New Vaquero, you only have 2 choices of caliber. 45 Colt, or 357 Magnum/38 special. That's it. The New Vaquero is not available in any other calibers. The 'old model' Vaquero was available in more calibers, but it is out of production. There are of course used ones around, but they are getting snapped up and the prices are going up because of the demand.

In its heyday, the 45 Colt was the most powerful factory loaded cartridge in existence, until the advent of the 357 Magnum in the 1930s. The standard factory load was a 250 grain bullet moving at about 800fps. Later developments like 357 Magnum, and even later, the 44 Magnum completely outclassed the old round. But in the original factory loading, it was nothing to sneeze at. It can be a handfull for a grown man. I have also seen ladies like the dimutive Lou Graham shoot them just fine. It all depends on the shooter. In original factory loadings, the 44-40 was only slightly less powerful, and had slightly less recoil than the 45 Colt.

It has of course become common with the advent of Cowboy Action Shooting, to load the 45 Colt way down to power, and recoil levels approximationg the 38 Special. My continual question is, WHY? If one wants to shoot cartridges with the power and recoil of a 38 Special, why not just start out with 38 Sp in the first place. While it is certainly possible to down load the 45 Colt to such levels, it tends to be troublesome, as the huge cartridge case does not take well to light loads. Just frequent the loading forums and read about the adventures of reloaders attempting to deal with smokey cases and incomplete combustion when shooting 160 grain hockey pucks in front of 3 flakes of Whiz Bang out of a 45 Colt.

Of course, these are the extremes. There are plenty of 200 grain loads that are respectable loads without beeing puffball loads, or tankbusters. These options can be explored through reloading.

If you compare any 2 revolvers of the same frame and model size, but differring calibers. The gun of the smaller caliber will always weigh more than the gun of the larger caliber. Because all other things being equal, there are smaller holes, and more metal, in the smaller caliber gun. So in addition to shooting lighter loads to begin with, the smaller caliber gun will be heavier, and will recoil even less than the larger caliber gun.

I recently purchased a pair of Ruger New Vaqueros in 357/38 for Mrs Johnson, as her CAS main match pistols. She is shooting some relatively mild 38 Sp reloads out of them, and they barely kick at all. But just for fun I fired some 357 Mag loads out of them, and they really let me know it when I dropped the hammer.

It's all up to you. 45 or 357/38 if you want to go with new Vaqueros. Of course getting a chance to try some is the best solution. Showing up at a CAS match is the best opportunity for that. Consider the cost. Big bore ammo is much more expensive than small bore. How much are you going to shoot? 45 Colt usually runs at least $20-$25/box of 50 retail. If you want to try one of the other calibers, like 44-40 or 38-40, you will have to go somewhere else than Ruger.

One other thing. The 'case hardened' finish on Rugers is not true case hardening. Case hardening is an old heat treating process by which carbon is infused into the outer layer of mild steel, resulting in a hard outer skin. This makes the outer skin of the steel wear resistant, while maintaining the ductile qualities of the inner body of the metal. The brilliant colors are just a by product of the process, they are not the purpose. Even without the colors, the hard outer skin would be there, but since the colors are so attractive, gunmakers developed processes to highlight the colors. Ruger does not case harden their parts. If you study the catalog carefully, you will see they never say 'case hardened'. They say Color Case, or something else like that. Ruger uses a modern steel and they heat treat it so that the steel is hardened completely through the part, not like the old fashioned case process which only hardens the surface. After their parts have been hardened, Ruger uses a chamical process to simulate the colors of true case hardening. It is nice looking, but it is not true case hardening.

Both Colt and USFA still case harden their parts the old fashioned way. In truth, it is an obsolete process. Ruger's more modern process is just as good, and is cheaper. But folks like the cachet of true case hardening. Upon close inspection, you can usually tell the difference. Uberti also case hardens some of their parts, but they use a slightly more modern process than Colt. But their colors have been induced by the process, not added later.

[fourfingersofdeath]

If she can handle a 9mm with factory loads, she will be well and truely able to handle a Ruger with 45 cowboy loads. It's funny, I am 59 and have been a gun nut since childhood and have absorbed every gun mag that I was able to ge in that time, both Australian and American. Until the cowboy action scene came along (and thank goodness it did, I just love it), the 38/357 single action revolvers were roundly lamblasted and dismissed as a curio, 'heft' was all wrong, etc, balance was all over the place, too heavy, didn't roll right in the hand under recoil, etc , etc.

Now in the age of the gamers, a 180degree turn around has been done and the 38s and 357s are fine all of a sudden. Most sound like capguns at the range when you have your ear protection on. Different strokes for different folks.

Go figure.

I have a pair of 45 Colt/APC Ruger convertibles, the 45ACP cylinder would give you th eopportunity to experiment with really mild loads. If you decide to go to a 9mm/357 convertible, you could use it to practice with el cheapo 9mm ammo. Personally, I'll stick with my 44s and 45s, but I will probably get one of these small bore convertibes one day.

[twhman]

Driftwood very interesting about the case harding - I do remember that the Ruger catelog does say something like color case hardened.  Did not really think about that at the time but I see what they are saying now ... colored to look like case harded.

I have hard about the problems of trying to download the big old brass with the modern smokeless powders - I think they are making some special extra bulky powders now to help solve that issue - probably due to the popularity of CAS.
In any event I think we will probably end up with a 38/357 in the New Vaquero as has been suggested.   If she likes it we can always get a 45LC to match.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

The 'extra bulky' powder you are referring to is called Trailboss. Traiboss is manufactured by IMR and distributed by Hodgdon.

http://www.hodgdon.com/HomePage.php

[Camille Eonich]

I shot a .45 for the first two and a half years of SASS with a very nice comfortable load that pushed right at 600 fps.  It was a very consistent load in all weather and there was not problems with primer backing out or anything like that.  My .38 loads are pushing about 825 fps with a power factor of around 78. Again a very nice load.  My .45 rifle had to be cleaned after every single match because the action got so dirty.  The .357 I wipe down good before I put it away after a match and I don't have to take it down and clean but about every 10 matches or so.  Don't really have to then.  Of course I don't let it go that long and it always gets thoroughly cleaned one local match before a big match.


Even the pistols don't get as dirty.  With the .38s you can run a bit hotter load and get a cleaner burn than to try to download a .45 and get not such a clean burn.