Modified Lee Moulds, 450 or 500 - Bullet Photos w/specs on Page 2

[Crazeyiven]

French Jack-

I am in the process of taking my measurements now.

I assume the 1.514" with the lyman bullet is your normal OAL with this bullet.  These, with this length, feed ok with a full mag?

David

[Crazeyiven]

French Jack-

Here is what I came up with (measurements with block out):

                    ramp                 extractor               
Your's            .150                    .162                   

Mine               .147                    .366                   

I've measured that extractor everywhich way I can.  It kept coming up at .366.  First couple of times I tried the extractor kept moving down and I got all sorts of reading.  Finally held it back with my finger and put a paper clamp on the back of it.

The ramp and extractor measurements are from highest point to the top of the block, as perpindicular as I could eyeball it.

If these numbers are right, my ramp is a bit short and the extractor is way too tall!

Going to try your bullet OAL.  I have the lyman #  515139.  I used 20/1 and get a bullet wt of 348 gr.

Looks like a service call.

Thanks,

David

[French Jack]

Ivan--- OOPS!!  the measurement on the extractor is .345" to .360" at it highest point, that's with the block assembly out of the receiver.  It's difficult to get the same twice, as there is some play and the block is curved as well.  Yours might not be to far out.  What is the compressed measurement?  Mine is .162" compressed into the block.

Yes, the OAL length is what feeds fine in my carbine with a full magazine.  Note the difference in the OAL of the Lyman and the LBT bullets when loaded.  The ogive is different on each, but both feed well.  The LBT is a bit easier.

[Crazeyiven]

French Jack-

The extractor completely laid down was .1605.  Pretty close.

I did one other measurement...from the top of the pin hole to the tip of the extractor...did it 3 times with the same #, got .626.

I've got the block stripped down to everthing but the extractor and the bullet ramp.  Going to clean and look for burrs, grease and graphite it and put it back together.  I think the gun is good.  Think it has to be something I am doing wrong.

I have the same bullet mould, the Lyman 515139.  Going to try some more dummys with them, set to your OAL, see what I get.

I have been trying to set OAL at near the 1.62 mark.  I have been reading back and I have seen a lot that that are in the 1.5x range.  Maybe I am doing it to long.  I just keep thinking that if the bullet is catching on the nose of the second bullet, then the first bullet must be longer to push the 2nd bullet back so the breach will close.

Will let you know how the bullet length experiment goes. 

Too bad Spencer did not take a run at center fire so all this would be work out!

Again, as always, appreciate the time & the information!

David

[French Jack]

David,
PM me your mailing address, and I'll send you a few of the LBT to play with.

[Crazeyiven]

Well, I just set the Lyman 515139 bullet in the starline cases to 1.514.  First one like action empty.

With three (and 2) it jammed.

Dropped the shells.  The nose of the second bullet has a cross cut parallel with the nose flat.  It was at .170 from the flat of the nose.

Interesting.  I had also loaded some of the Lee 450 cut down to a length of 1.62.  Those had a cut at .094.  Average those together and it comes out ~ 1.70.

Seems that I remember that Black River Smith made some comment, in this thread, about that length (1.70).  Also something about a longer bullet or a wider metplat?  Will go back and read that again.


I am going to try to attach a photo of the shells (lyman).

[Crazeyiven]

So much for that theory.

I set up 3 450 lee cut downs to 1.720 (1 grease groove showing).  The second bullet had the nose cut at .090.

David

[French Jack]

Ivan,
It appears that the problem is with block failing to push the following round in the magazine back to allow proper cycling.  I wonder if you had broken the edges of the block as I suggested, if so, check the magazine tube for problems.  Perhaps a burr where the stock tube screws onto the receiver, or the follower sticking, or magazine spring overly strong.  Also, the feeding is better if when cycling the action, the muzzle is kept slightly above the horizontal-- a simple cure for the weight of the rounds causing the following round to stick in the blocks.

[Black River Smith]

Those are the types of cuts that I experienced.  The theory is the first bullet enters block, the second is too far in. Then the closing block 'upper edge jams' its and cuts the lead.  It does not bounce or slide past it.  The idea is to find that optimal OAL that makes the gun work.  The only problem with that is that there may be grease grooves that are exposed on the bullet you choose to use.

The shorter the OAL the more likely it is that this will happen.  The second will come forward too much.  The distance the cut is from the nose will change with OAL.

The other situation that creates this cut -- is when the bullet nose slides sideways past the Lane extractor/bullet stop which then allows the second bullet to come forward.  This is where a wider metplat helps.

There is a fine line between the two situations.  This is why I stated that this gun has inherent bullet nose problems.  The nicks.

According to recorded Spencer 56/50 bullet lengths, I come up with this:    Avearage is - 1.626"  Range is - 1.56" up to 1.71".


The third problem is that at some OAL, I think it was ~ 1.68", I could not load 7 shells into the magazine.

I will make measurments for my carbine, when I can.  It is good to have several and I am interested to see if there are variances in the ramp and extractor.

FJ is correct they did at some point bevel/round over the upper edge of the block on the originals.  I just don't want to file that down at this point if I can help it or get it to work some other way.

[Crazeyiven]

French Jack & Black River Smith-

Was taking a look at your posts this morning.

Have been testing with three.  I loaded the mag, seperately, with 6 rounds (the lengths I have only allow 6 1/2 shells)...seemed smooth enough.

I was looking down the mag tube in the stock towards the action...I noticed something.  The block, when it raises, seems to be about 40% offset to the right, ie., as the block is raised about only about 60% of the block can be seen moving up.  The bullet guide was almost completely to the right (towards the hammer).  Is this normal.  Would have expected all that to be centered.

Normal?  Have tried to draw what I saw.

Thanks

David

[French Jack]

The magazine tube on mine is offset some also.  It is possible that it could be a problem, but as the round is loose, when it enters the receiver, ahead of the upper block, it straightens itself out when the block moves it under the bullet guide.  You are definitely seating your bullets out too far if you cannot get 7 in the magazine.  I have no trouble at all getting 7 in, and can almost load eight. 

[Crazeyiven]

Has anyone tried bullets out of something hard, perhaps like tire weights?

Perhaps a hard bullet would slide back instead of cut?

I have been using 1/20 tin/lead.

Also, anyone tried the Buffalo Arms 350 gr .512 bullet and had good feeding results?  It is a pretty flat nose bullet.  If yes, OAL?

Thanks,

David

[Fox Creek Kid]

I have an idea. Since 6 pages of helpful hints hasn't solved your problem why don't you find a local gunsmith to help you? I think you need to consult a gunsmith in person with said weapon.

[Crazeyiven]

Fox Creek Kid-

*  Before I found this site I gave that a try.  Looked first for someone (read gunsmith) that is Taylor  authorized then for someone (read gunsmith) who knows anything about a Spencer.
·   The best response I have received locally is "isn't that some repeater or something from the Civil War or something." Grammar theirs, not mine.
·   The gun is new and unfired.  I am pretty sure that having a "skilled" local work on it would void the warranty.
·   A couple of really helpful folks on this site have given me contacts to call.  Our Moderator, Two Flints, has been especially helpful.  Page 4, post # 4 of this, as you point out, 6 page thread, addresses that issue.
·   Again, with the help of several really great folks on this site, I am beginning to think the problem is me and the ammunition, especially as related to the OAL.
·   Before I go to the trouble, time and expense of sending it back and telling the company that the rifle is defective and/or does not work I want to be sure I know what I am talking about.  Nothing worse that running your mouth and not knowing what you are talking about.
·   Bullet feeding is an issue that comes up frequently on this site (note that the new thread named "Spencer Magazine Feed comparison" is already up to 2 pages)  .  Some of the great information on these 6 pages may help someone other than me.
·   If I can determine why mine locks up cold, it may save someone else this frustration.

Thanks for your input.

David

[Crazeyiven]

Fox Creek Kid's above comment brings up an interesting question.  I wonder how many gunsmiths there are across country that actually know enough about a Spencer, its specifications, the geometry of its action, etc that one would feel confident enough to let them "fix it?"

There are a few that are obvious.  Taylor's have someone, Cimarron probably does.  Then there are the folks that mfg the Romano.  No doubt some others (probably mostly in Montana!).  However, I bet all of these will just work on their own products (except maybe Romano?).  Who does that leave?

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

David 

[Two Flints]

Hi Crazeyivan,

First of all, the six pages of posts that responded to your original post have been very interesting to read...and I'm sure other "new" Spencer owners will be able to make use of some of the ideas and suggestions that were presented in an attempt to help you with your loading problems.

I think I sent you an Email or PM suggesting that you send your Spencer to Tom, the gunsmith at Taylor's.  In that way your problem may be discovered without affecting your warranty.  Spending too much time trying to make something "right" can be frustrating - been there, done that!

I've been in quite a few gun shops and when asking if they had any Spencers for sale, the clerk looked at me with a blank expression..."a what?"

If there are members of SSS who want to respond to your loading difficulties with possible suggestions or solutions, they will.  Others will just read the posts and not comment

Two Flints

[French Jack]

IvaN, you can send it back to Taylor's by USPS.  Priority Mail is definitely cheaper and faster than UPS, and you can get delivery confirmation as well.

[Black River Smith]

Crazyiven and FJ

I just took the block out and measured it.  The Lane extractor fullly extended is 0.342" and the bullet guide/hump is 0.135".

The magazine view is the same.

[Crazeyiven]

Two Flints-

Thanks for your response.

You are correct.  You did PM the Taylor information.  Generally, the time to catch someone is during business hours.  I suspect they will ask questions that will require to have the gun and perhaps some of the dummy rounds handy.  I am the Controller for a large law firm downtown.  I am not sure how well a bunch of lawyers would take to me walking into the office with a rifle and "ammunition".  Not sure they would differentiate between "ammunition" and "dummy rounds!"  How's the old saying go...they'd be as nervous as a long tail cat in a room full of rocking chairs!

At first it was frustrating.  I wanted to load up and go shoot!  But now it has become a challenge to figure out just what the issue is and fix it!

As we've discussed before, there are a great bunch of folks on this site.  In my trek through this problem I have learned an enormous amount that is really not just related to the  problem at hand.  There is a wealth of information here and a lot of folks who do not mind helping and sharing.  Through the course of this thread, and others too, there are several of these folks that I'd like to meet.

As always, thanks for your time and input.

David

[Crazeyiven]

French Jack-

Thanks for the shipping suggestion.  If I end up having to send it back I will do that.

David