Original NMA conversions

[Galloway]

What caliber were the original NMA conversions chambered in? I assume 44colt.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Howdy,

The first ones were actualy in .46 French rimfire, five shot.  Remington paid a licensing fee to S&W to convert almost 5,000 NMAs  to .46 for the Army between 1868 and 1869.

I personally handled one about a dozen years ago.

[Silver Creek Slim]

According to the 21st Edition Blue Book of Gun Values, "most are in .44 rimfire". According to the 2000 Standard Catalog of Firearms, they were ".44 or .46" caliber.

Slim

[Tommy tornado]

I have one that is 46 Rimfire.  I used to have a cartridge too, but I don't know what happened to it when I moved.

[Galloway]

Did those 5000 go to the French army or was it a French cartridge that had already been developed?

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

Mc Dowell calls them 46 Cal. Remington, they were copper cased.

I have never heard the term 46 Cal. French before reading your article TL.

My Armory Conversion NMA is 44 Rem/Colt C.F. Probably converted after 1870. There were some converted to 45LC, but that was after they became available. Mc Dowell seemed to think that there were 44 C.F. conversions before 1870, (1868-1869) but had no proof, but for the Ordinance records he has in his book that states these were in "Field Tests". 46 Cal before that. All Circumvented Rollin White's patent unless converted by Smith and Wesson.

[Fox Creek Kid]

http://www.oldammo.com/january04.htm

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Howdy,

I thought I read it was in Worman's book "Firearms of the American West 1866-1894?" or Cartridges of the world, but I checked and could not find it.  Maybe I picked up the "French" term in another book on Remingtons or from the owner of the conversion I handled 12 years ago!  It might have even been in the 1996 Cowboy Chronicle article where the author encountered a 46 rimfire Remmie that had belonged to one of the hole in the wall gang.

I seem to remember it was an already developed cartridge.  Cartridges of the world lists it as having a .456 dia, 230 grain bullet and 26 grains BP in its Winchester loading.  That bullet seems to be a little too big to have been designed for the Remington, as the centerfire conversion bullets specifically designed for the remmies were .443, and the round balls were .454.

The Winchester loadings sounds like a Schofield!  The dimensions are not that different either. 

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

44 Remington/Colt C.F. is not the same cartridge as the 44 Colt. 44 Colt will not work in original Colt or Remington or other 44 C.F. pistolas. It will skip down the bore.

Actually the 44 Remington/Colt C.F. was a heeled bullet .451 Drive bands and a .429 Dia Heel. Remington made these from around 1870 thru 1895. They were made for Original Remington and Colt Conversions.

.433 Dia would skip down the .451 Grooves/.439 lands.  Most 44 Cap and Ball pistrols used the .451 Groove and .439 Lands bore. Hence most 44 C.F. conversions can use the 44 Rem/Colt C.F.

The Colt 44 was the smaller bore .439 Dia Grooves that we have today.  (repro Open Tops in 44 Colt).

Old West Moulds brought the caliber back. This is the caliber that I reload and shoot in my original conversions.

Mc Dowell states that the 46 Remington RF cylinders would also chamber 44 Rem. RF. Which had .451 or larger Drive bands. The 44 C.F. cylinders would chamber the 44 Martin, 44  S&W Russian and the 44 Remington. I believe that all these cartridges were outside lubed at the time and heeled bullets, not the 44 S&W of today.

[Tommy tornado]

Here are some pics of my Conversion

[Tommy tornado]

and a couple more

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

Don't ya just LOVE these old Girls?
Nice Remy Tommy. What Cal. is it?  44 C.F.? Do you shoot it?

[Tommy tornado]

I believe it to be a .46 rimfire, therefore I can't shoot it.  I would love to but no ammo.

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

I don't think it is a 46 Rimfire because of the firing pin arrangement.  A 46 RF Cal  would only be a 5 shot because of thecylinder, I believe that the 46 Cal's were 5 shot only like most of the 45LC that came later...now I need to go back and re-read McDowells Book again.

Use Dial Calipers and measure the the chambers. Since there are 6 Holes I'm betting that it's a 44 Rem/Colt C.F. Does the cylinder have Rimfire notches dead center top side of each chamber?  The dimension of the chambers, if 44 C.F. (which is different that 44 Colt)(Brass is the same but the bullet is different), should be .456-.460 Dia. to chamber the .451 Dia Heeled outside lube bullet and Colt 44 brass.

Check it out and let us know what it is for sure.

[Tommy tornado]

From my measurements my chambers of the cylinder are about .454 and the bore is around .440ish.  You might be right about it being a .44 rem/colt.  I tried a .45 LC in it and it wouldn't chamber.  The hole for the firing pin looks like it might be on center with the cylinder.  In looking at the back of the cylinder there are some strikes on the back that look like it is centerfire.  I have always taken my Dad's word that it was a .46 rimfire, but it might not be.  How do I make or get a hold of .44 Rem/Colt rounds to try?

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

Sounds like 44 Rem C.F. to me!
I reload them.
PM me with your address and I'll get a few to you.

If it were RF it would have notches machined in the back of the cylinder and your cylinder doesn't have them. The strikes could be from dry firing the pistol.

Your lands are .439-.440 and the grooves will be approx .451. You can slug the bbl with a .454 ball and mic the lands and grooves that way. remember the the slug will be reversed copy of the bore.(ie wide grooves and narrow lands.



You can get your 44 Rem/colt C.F. supplies at Old West Moulds, Fruita Co.  Bernie Knowles is the proprietor. his email is:  allisonmonument@aol.com

He has the bullets(I suggest the 248 grn. .451 dia. drive bands(lube grooves between) Heeled outside lubed bullet with a .429 heel, these are the most accurate with 28 grns FFG or FFG or 4.5-4.75 Grns Trail Boss smokeless Cowyboy. They use 44 Colt brass available from most BP cartridge suppliers, Buffalo Arms has them. Bernie may have them also. He also has moulds to pour your own.

Does your pistol have the larger conversion numbers on it also? It looks a lot like my conversion.
Mine is like the one  on pg Number 63 fig.3-65 Figure 3-66 is on the same page and my gun is S/N between the S/N's of these two guns.

My Armory Conversion is marked with a big 85 on the left grip frame and under the bbl, and on the left side of the hammer, in addition to the original S/N. it is a 5 digit, issued during the Civil War.

Also I notice that your hammer spur has been reworked too. Different than the reworked hammer spur photo'd and noted in Mc Dowell's book.

[Tommy tornado]

Thanks for the information.  This gun has always been a bit of a mystery.  I PMed you as well.

[Galloway]

Charlie, are you saying the 44 colt and rem cf were the same cartridges just different names? And regarding the five shot 46 rf, this still used the stock nma barrel right? Most conversions use only one caliber so why did they make a 44 and a 46 when only one should work in the C&B barrel?

[Halfway Creek Charlie]

Galloway,
The bbls were not changed or opened up but used as is as they were oversize anyway and the 46 Rem.  RF worked as it was too, I don't know if the Dia of the .46 was smaller than .460 or they just forced it thru the .451 grooves. I do not have an original 46 RF to inspect. Nor do I have any litature on this cartridge.

44 Colt C.F. and 44 Rem.C.F. are the same cartridge. This is not the 44 Colt cartridge that is/was/used in the open tops, that shoots a .431 Dia inside lubed Bullet with 44 Colt brass. 44 Colt is also not the 44 Long Colt. I believe that 44 LC and 44 Colt C.F. are one and same.

44 Colt brass is used today for the brass for 44 Rem./Colt C.F. these were exclusively used for Colt and Remington ORIGINAL C & B conversions. whose bore was .451 Grooves and .439-.440 lands. Most all of the original C & B 44's had this bore so they all would have been converted to 44 C.F. (Rem./Colt,)

TT.
The large 17 is your conversion number.  Got your PM.

I have an original Starr DA Conversion to 44 C.F. and it is the same cylinder chambers as the Remy, though the bore is a bit bigger, possibly due to being freshened at some point in it's period of use. It chambers and shoots my 44 Rem/Colt C.F. just fine.

[Fox Creek Kid]

As an added note to Charlie's good summary, the .44 Colt for the ORIGINAL U.S. Model Colt 1st Model Richards conversions was .44 Colt (Martin case), which is a larger diameter case (just a hair) than the commercial .44 Colt.