Full Power .45 Colt loads

[Revolver Ocelot]

For colt clones, I'm curious, what's the safe pressure peak at?  I'd always understood it to be 14k CUP, and that's what I've been basing load requests at.  Local gunshop in town also makes his own loads, and I've got some 250 grain rounds running at 950 fps.  These are using HS6, but I understand a similar load uses 9 grains of unique.  Some have told me that's a bit hot, but I understand the original BP load at 1000 fps out of 7.5" bbl.  Am I pushing it too hard and looking at catastrophic failure in the near future?  Is there a safer load that still has some power behind it?  This 800 fps is not something I'm keen with.

[Silver Creek Slim]

The following link shows the SAAMI recommended maximum chamber pressures. http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm The .45 Colt is list at 14,000 PSI.
For Hodgdon, IMR, and Winchester powder load data go to http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp .
For Alliant powder load data go to http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/Index.htm . This site does not have a load listed for 250gr lead bullet with 9grs of Unique. Always follow published load data from the powder maker.

The original .45 Colt cases had more room in them than what the modern cases have. It is almost impossible to get enough BP in a modern case to get 1000fps with a 250gr bullet. As far as I know, a full case BP under a 250gr bullet doesn't produce 14,000 PSI.

Slim

[St. George]

If the question is about the clones' abilities - remember - they're built to withstand SAAMI specs.

That said - 'some' are known to have soft springs and screws.

Replacement of those seems to fix the problem.

The original 'balloon head' cases held more than do today's, and back when the round was originally developed - they were loaded with a 255 grain bullet - over 35-40 grains of FFg - muzzle velocity of around 810 fps.

Barnes' 'Cartridges of the World' gives data of a 255 grain bullet - 40 grains of FFg - with a muzzle velocity of 860 fps.

That's for original loads - lighter bullets will reach faster speeds.

Unique's a good powder - with 9 grains pushing a 225 grain JHP around 950 fps.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Revolver Ocelot]

It was my mistake, it listed a 255gr LSWC in .452", and I KNOW it was listed in the regular .45 Colt load, not the TC/Ruger only section.  Pressure was around 13k or so I recall.  Oddly enough, such a load is not listed on hodgon's website.  It might have been accurate powder, but I'm not sure.  I don't recall what they use, I just remember they weren't over max pressure.  For some strange reason, the websites don't list as many loads as the actual manuals do.  The guy at the shop also loaded some 147gr 9mm loads for me at around 1100 fps that were listed in a manual, but I've not been able to find those anywhere else.  I really just wanted to make sure as long as I don't break the 14k pressure limit, that I'm ok for extended use.  Certainly these won't see thousands of rounds a month run through them at this pressure, but I'm not looking to wreck a perfectly good gun, either.

[Silver Creek Slim]

My non-expert opinion says the Colt clones should be just fine with loads under 14K PSI in extended use.

Slim

[Revolver Ocelot]

Somebody on a very similar thread sent a link for this

http://www.reloadammo.com/45cload.htm

It says the loads I'm interesting are listed as max loads, which are supposedly tough on guns.  What I've read about the early days is that while they did originally stuff it with 45 grains of BP for that 1000 fps, it was tough on guns, especially the old iron pre '92 models.  They then chose for the military to drop it to 810 fps or so (still no joke for a 250 or 255gr bullet).  I'm just wondering since newer guns are built with much better steel (I have a USFA in mind, and currently use a taurus), will these see self destruction in a few thousand rounds, or will it not be much of an issue?  I don't get to shoot nearly as much as I'd like to, and even if I did, they wouldn't see much more than a couple hundred rounds a month.  Sound like an issue?

Also just found my load on Hodgdon's website, it lists a 250 grn LFP at 946 fps with 10.5 grains HS6, pressure listed at 13.3k

[mtmarfield]

   Greetings!

   In Handloader Magazine #212 / Aug. 2001, Dave Scovill has a fine article called "Rumors". Here, he discusses the .45Colt and .45Govt.Springfield cartridges, how they were loaded, and how we all Think that they were loaded... Hence, the article's title. Yes, you can get more BP into a "balloon-head" case... You can also get full spec loads into "solid-head" cases; it's all in technique.
   You'll find that 40gr. charges of BP with the 250/260gr. bullets are Lots Of Fun and shoot well, too! Backing down to the 35gr. load doesn't diminish the fun, either; see what your revolver likes better.
   Pressure is, generally speaking, kinder & gentler with BP; but according to some sophisticated tests privately conducted and written about in other magazines {Double Gun Journal is one}, sometimes Smokeless generates less pressure, with the same external ballistic results. The consensus seems to be that, for our older-technology arms that we "handicap" ourselves with, BP has a more "easy-going" time/pressure sequence that is easier on our old guns/replicas. Lots of these vintage cartridges work Great with Herc. Unique, too; and if you want to avoid the hassle of BP cartridges, there's usually a powder charge put out by one of our powder companies that is ok in most guns. As others have admonished, stick to their charges!
   Like Elmer Keith wrote in his classic, Six-Gun Cartridges & Loads, it's best for a beginner to "... get his course of sprouts..." by getting a can of BP and an Lyman/Ideal Tong Tool, and learning the basics. It's a great way to learn in a "hands-on" fashion... The modern version of the old Ideal "Nutcracker" tools, the Lyman 310 Tool, is slow in this era of fully automated Progressives, but they're actually fun, instructive, and turn out first-rate cartridges. Some of my first reloading was done around the campfire, casting bullets on the little mould blocks on an old Ideal #1 "Nutcracker", melting scrap lead in a soup can, smearing lube into the grooves, pouring the scooped & struck powder, and seating the ball in the die cast into the handle. It works!
   Regardless what you shoot, everyone who loads cartridges truly should have a copy of the latest Lyman Reloading Handbook, or Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook; in my opinion, they're the most thorough textbooks on the subject.
   Please forgive the preaching, this is a dear subject of mine!

   Be Well, All!

                  M.T.Marfield:.
                     3-10-07

   

[Revolver Ocelot]

Casting my own bullets is not something that really appeals to me, but I am otherwise in learning about loading cartridges by myself.  Currently I know very little about handloading ammo, and it is why I don't have the equipment and must consequently commission the local shop owner to do it for me.  I select a load, staying within safe operating pressures, and he cooks them up.  That said, all aspects of firearms, especially their development fascinate me.  I don't know if I'm getting this right, but it sounds to me like BP loads (substitutes also) in older style firearms are the best bet.  Perhaps this is because it is the way they were designed, I don't know.  I certainly have no problem with this, but I would really like to have peaked out performance in terms of velocity with a 250 (or 255) grain bullet.  All that said, preach away, you've got ears that will never tire, and a mouth that always has questions.

I'm not entirely interested in what the SAA is now, and it's modern, CAS type applications.  That may sound rude, as I hope to someday become a CAS shooter, as it certainly sounds like a great deal of fun.  Right now though, I'm interested in what the SAA was, and what it's potential is, as I intend to wring out the best performance I can using mostly if not completely stock, well made replicas with various different loadings.  I use my Taurus both for CCW and HD.  I feel that it is better at most everything than any of the other modern handguns I own with certain exceptions (reload time is not quite on par with my Glock 34 lol) because it's a hard hitter. I also find it to be extremely well balanced, fast, accurate, reliable, and durable.  I just want to make sure I will be using it to its full potential (certainly more so when I become more proficient with it, as range time is something I seem to be short on) with the best loads I can attain for it, but at safe pressures for extended use in the firearm.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Current SAAMI Max pressure for 45 Colt is 14,000 psi. This is NOT the same as 14,000 CUP. They are not analagous.

Comparing Black Powder pressures to Smokeless pressures can be very misleading. The pressure spike for Smokeless powders is much sharper than the pressure spike for Black Powder, and it is that sharp spike that can be damaging in any gun. I don't have any pressure data for Black Powder loads, but the peak pressure will probably not be as high for a BP load of X velocity, as well as having a more forgiving pressure spike, than a Smokeless load of similar velocity.

As for BP velocity, Kuhnhausen lists the original 40 grain, 250grain lead bullet velocity as 910 fps. As a side note, the term 'Balloon Head' brass gets thrown around a lot. According to Kuhnhausen, the only 45 Colt loads that are documemted as being able to fit 40 grains of FFg Black Powder were pre-Balloon Head cases. They were Benet primed cases, of folded rim construction. Benet primed cases had even more interior capacity than Boxer pirmed Balloon Head cases. Here is a photo of some Benet primed cases:



These 40 grain loads gained a reputation for blowing up cylinders in very early Colt SAAs, because Colt was still using iron for the cylinders. The powder charged was reduced, AND Colt went to steel cylinder construction about the same time. Colt did not factory waranty the SAA for Smokeless powder until 1900, at which time they felt that steel metalurgy had advanced to a state that it could withstand the pressure of Smokeless powder.

Current SAAs and their clones have cylinders that are made with modern arsenal steels, and hopefully they are also properly heat treated, so they should be perfectly capable of taking loads up to the 14,000 PSI limit. However, a steady diet of these loads may or may not start to cause enough pounding of the frames and the lockwork to eventually be detrimental to the revolver. I certainly would not feed my Colts a steady diet of SAAMI MAX loads.

I have no data on HS6 powder. My current Speer manual shows 9.5 grains of Unique as the MAX load in 45 Colt with a 250 grain L SWC bullet, at 942 FPS. However, bump up the bullet weight by just 5 grains, and my Speer manual shows 8.5 grains of Unique as the MAX load with a 255 grain SWC bullet, at 846 FPS.

Histrorically, with Smokeless powders, factory loads for 45 Colt usually ran 800 fps with a 250 grain bullet.

Personally, if I was feeding data to somebody who was making ammo for me, and it sounds like this reloader is not real familiar with the 45 Colt cartridge to begin with, I would be very leary of supplying him with Max, or near Max data.

Instead, I would hit the books, and start loading my own ammo. And I would always stay away from Max loads in any SAA or Clone.

P.S.: I take NO RESPONSIBILITY for any data that I have listed here. Be sure to check all data against a reputable published manual. I'm as capable of a typo as anybody.

[Revolver Ocelot]

I see your point.  However, he sells a lot of reloads in the .45 Colt caliber, though most of those use trail boss for cowboy loads.  I'll start looking around for BP/substitute loads and see what I can come up with.  The issue is that I really have some reliabilty concerns with automatics, I can trust my revolver to fire, but I don't want paper punching bullets for it.  Any other info anyone has is still welcome.  Even if the information given is not useful to my particular modern loads (which it so far actually is), I still love learning about the development of the ammunition and pistols themselves.

Did some poking around.  Pyrodex is a BP substitute for cartridge weapons, no?  It seems to me triple 7 is for B&C or muzzleloading, but pyrodex is what they use for cartridges.  I found some interesting data, but I cannnot discern what the differences are.

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/cowboy/pyrodex-p-r.php

They mention use of 'P' 'RS' and 'Select' powders.  I do not know the difference, but it definitely makes one in terms of velocity and pressure using the same amount of powder.  All loads are acceptable to me, I especially like the middle one.  It provides sufficient velocity, but not at near max pressure.

The only problem I can see with these loads is that I hear the taurus has problems sticking on BP loads b/c of the tight construction and lack of cylinder bushing.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy again

Pyrodex is simply the oldest of the BP substitutes. It is also the most corrosive. They can all be used in any application you want, muzzle loading or cartridge. For a really good explanation of the pros and cons of the different BP substitutes, check out Captain Baylor's Ranger Camp:

http://www.curtrich.com/captbaylorsrangercamp.html

I'm not sure what you mean by 'paper punching' bullets. You can load the 45 Colt with any type of bullet you want, paper punchers like wad-cutters and semi-wad cutters, or the traditional lead round nosed bullets. For CAS it is recommended that any bullet that might find its way into the tubular magazine of a rifle be a Flat Point Round Nose. For CAS you must use a lead bullet.

[Revolver Ocelot]

When I say paper punchers, I mean weak target loads, bullet type has nothing to do with it.  I just don't want 200 grain bullets at 800 fps.  As I said, I use my taurus for defence, I can't be using target loads for stopping an armed assailant.  Jacketed bullets are out of the question for me, it's an SAA after all.  Corrosive has no effect on me, I'm totally anal about cleaning my pistols.  I detail strip simply because I'm bored, and it hasn't been done in a while.  The thought of dirt in the action is wholly unacceptable.  Corrosive powders have no effect on my fireamrs because they don't wait a few hours when I get off the range, it's the first thing I do when I get back.  The smell and feel of a newly cleaned weapon (especially after the range, sometimes they're still warm) warms me to the soul.  I'll take a look at that link though and see if I have more questions.

[Revolver Ocelot]

Ok, I've peeked over that article you linked.  Sounds like pyrodex is almost worse than the holy black in terms of careful cleaning.  Was interesting to note that BP doesn't stick to the frame like smokeless residues, more of a matter of wiping I guess.  I guess I'm going to have to start using special bullets if I want pyrodex though.  Are they as easy to come across like on midway, or are there certain, expensive places I need to go?

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

I can't speak much about self defense loads, I have no expertise in it. I can tell you there is no reason at all why you cannot shoot jacketed bullets in a SAA, as long as SAAMI pressures are respected. There must be plenty of SAAMI spec (14,000 psi or under) self defense loads out there. If you want more power, you need something other than a SAA. When you said paper punchers, I thought you were referring to bullets specifically designed to punch clean holes in paper, like the wad-cutter and semi-wad cutter.

There are so many different ways to shoot Black Powder that books are written on the subject. Not really enough space, or time, here. With real Black Powder you must use a bullet that carries a lube that is compatible with Black Powder. Regular Smokeless lubes will cause an unending amount of grief with Black Powder. Some of the substitutes do not require special lubes. Refer to Captain Baylor for the specifics, I only shoot real Black Powder and am not up on all the subs. The latest design in Black Powder bullets is the Big Lube design. Refer to the Black Powder section of this forum and you will learn all there is to know about them, I really don't want to type it all out here. There are other bullets made for Black Powder, I have used them and not been totally satisfied with them myself. Again, check the Black Powder forum for specifics.

Pyrodex is worse, there is no question about it. I would stay away from it myself.

One other thing. Done properly, cleaning up after shooting real Black Powder is actually easier than cleaning up after Smokeless. Messier, yer. But easier. If BP is shot with a BP compatible lube, the fouling melts right off the gun with any water based BP solvent. No foul smelling, toxic solvents are necessary. It actually takes less elbow grease to clean up after BP than it does after Smokeless, and there is never, ever, any leading left behind when shooting BP.

I gotta warn you though, I view cleaning my guns totally differently than you. I seldom clean a Smokeless gun, only when it really needs it, or is bogging down. As far as shooting BP is concerned, with real BP and modern non-corrosive primers real BP is far less corrosive than most people think. I seldom clean my BP guns the same day I shoot them. I try to clean them within a week, maybe two weeks. You don't want to hear how long I have gone without cleaning them. With a good cleaning regimen, totally stripping a gun down after shooting BP is unnecessary. You are putting far more wear and tear on the screw threads and screws by frequently tearing down your guns, than just shooting them and cleaning when necessary will. I clean my chambers and bores, and all easily accessable surfaces of my BP guns every time I shoot them, unless I am going to be shooting them again in a day or so. But I only tear down my BP guns once a year to give them a thorough de gunking. You would be horrified at the oily BP fouling that is inside, but the bottom line is, with the techniques I use, there is never any rust. That's what's important. BP fouling infused with oil can no longer suck moisture out of the atmosphere and is totally harmless to steel. The trick is to infuse it with oil. Any more aggressive cleaning of oily BP fouling down inside a gun may be aesthetically pleasing, but it is mechanically unnecessry.

All of these statements refer to real Black Powder. I have no experience with the subs and make no recommendations for them.

Just This Cowboy's Humble Opinion, take it for what it's worth to you.

[Grizzle Bear]

Revolver Ocelot:

If you are carrying your SAA for self-defense purposes, you DO NOT want to put reloads in it, no matter your own or from a gun shop.  Use commercial ammo only!  A smart lawyer would make your use of handloads look like you were just out looking for someone to shoot.  You should not have a hard time finding commercial ammo with a high-performance bullet in it.

Grizzle Bear

[Revolver Ocelot]

Couple misunderstandings there:  I don't detail strip my pistol every time I clean it, especially not an SAA.  Realigning all the screws is entirely annoying, and yes, wears them down.  I said I don't want to use jacketed bullets in an SAA because.....although it can fire them, they don't have the feel I like.  The pistol was designed around lead bullets, so that's what I use.

Grizzle bear.....good point.  I never really worry about SD shootings and lawyers, but it is something to watch out for.  Remington has a pretty decent looking commercial round, about the only I've considered.

I've been spending time on the black powder forums, reading up.  Thanks for all the info guys.


I do have another question though, while this thread is still going on.  Hodgdon's website lists 37 grains of pyrodex at very acceptable velocities.  These loads are supposed to be tit for tat with black powder.  My question is though, why it lists different grades, which definitely have an effect on velocity.  I'm wondering which load I'd be looking at with 37 grains of normal black powder since I've not seen any different grade types listed as with pyrodex.  That is of course, unless different grades like 'p', 'rs', and 'select' are similar to the FFg, and FFFg of normal black?