What is the advantage of a case-hardened frame?

Tommy tornado · February 25, 2007, 10:54:08 AM

I have some Cabela's saved up and I was going to get me a new Remington. I have basically norrowed it down to the 5 1/2 inch barrel all blue model and the 8-inch barrel case-hardened frame models. What is the advantage of the case-hardened frame aside from looks? I know that both aren't very historically accurate (that is not my concern). Thanks in advance for your replies.

St. George · February 25, 2007, 11:31:15 AM

Casehardening is surface hardening.

Back when these guns were originally built - they were largely made of iron, and that was fine for the time.

Colt originally saw that surface hardening the frame - where screws held everything in alignment - was a smart idea, and the result was a mottled finish that proved attractive.

As metallurgy changed - so did the hardness - but as far as Colt was concerned, the casehardened finish was also quite attractive and served a purpose - so it was kept.

Remington never casehardened the frame - their design and metallurgy were sufficient for the Government Contracts that 'made' them, and so they stayed with what worked for them - as Colt stayed with their idea.

It allowed a 'brand familiarity' to those who would later purchase commercial revolvers, as well.

Today - guns are made of steel, and not iron - and unless abused, don't require the strengthening that casehardening afforded earlier pieces

In short - if you want a Remington that looks 'right' - get the long-barrelled blued one.

If not - then the casehardened one's the one for you.

I'd also factor in 'feel', since you won't enjoy what doesn't feel right to your shooting hand.

Good Luck.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

Cincinnati Slim · February 26, 2007, 01:11:26 PM

Howdy,

I got a 5 1/2 inch Pietta Remmie from Cabela's and like it just fine. But that case hardened frame pistola with the checkered grips sure does look good to me! I think you will see that the "premium" models from Pietta e.g. case hardened, stainless, engraved and polished/plated varieties seem to be put together with more care, slicker/tighter actions, fewer machine marks etc. I think, in this case at least, you DO get what you pay for.

Cincinnati Slim

sundance44`s · February 26, 2007, 01:18:20 PM

My case hardened 5 1/2 Uberti Remmie seems easyer to clean than the steel framed ones I have ....Looks great shoots great and feels great in my hands ...

Stacey Lee · February 27, 2007, 08:09:44 AM

Great responces from the fellas you got there, and heres my two cents too.
I own both specimens from Cabelas and they both are nice. I like the little pistol alot, but I don't care about politically being correct or period correct, as people back then did um-teen million renditions of there pistols, short barrels, checkering, carving, , so to say it aint period correct is only a FACTORY idea , not reality in what people actually did back then. There were gunsmiths you know ? So, not period correct, ok whatever . Not factory correct,well, yes, ok whatever.
Anyway, the case-hardened one is stronger,IMHO, it has to be cause its case-hardened. Thats why they call it case hardened, because its CASE hard tempered with charcole and bone then cooled to temper. Very strong stuff, plus like was mentioned it is beautiful in allot of peoples eyes. Mine included. The Cabelas offering is gorgeous if you saw the pictures I posted of mine ?
If I only had money for one of these I would get the Case-Hardened one, it is put together well and is strikingly beautiful and it shoots great too. Or save up and get both , then how could you lose.

Sincerely, Stacey Lee

will52100 · February 28, 2007, 01:27:58 AM

I could be wrong, but from what I've seen of the repo's is that it isn't real case harding, just colored to look like it. If it's real case harding it'd make it stronger.

I agrea that to say it's not original is to say it's not factory. Think about the 5 1/2" 58', I'm sure many were choped in the old days. My first 58' had an 8" barrel but I cut it down and moved the loading leaver latch back and shortened it. As for the case hardened frame, don't know if anybody did that back then, but they were capable of doing it. Think "custom".

St. George · February 28, 2007, 10:31:54 AM

But back then, nobody was as enamored with their revolvers like they are today - so 'custom' wasn't going to be a simple thing like the case-hardening - especially case-hardening done by a plant that didn't do it as a general rule in the manufacturing process - but more along the lines of nickel-plating and/or engraving.

The firearm was just a tool to the vast bulk of users, and surplus percussion revolvers were 'very' cheap to purchase, filling the short-term perceived need for a sidearm.

The thrust of new production was in the building of cartridge revolvers.

Back then - folks 'were' enamored of the idea of 'new and improved' and the various Expositions and Fairs kept the idea of 'progress' uppermost in the public eye.

Besides - case-hardening is 'microns' thick - as mentioned - a 'surface' thickness.

It didn't permeate the entire frame - it didn't turn iron into steel - it just surface-hardened it so the screw holes would be stronger.

Scouts Out!

will52100 · February 28, 2007, 11:13:59 AM

I never said that they did it, and there probably are no know examples, but a good gunsmith or machinist certainly had the ability to do the job. I call it a custom because they were never produced from the factory, if the factory didn't produce them how did it get here?

Case harding is just a thin skin, but it stiffens the whole frame, not just the screw holes. Also the longer it's baked the thicker the skin. And from what I've seen on Itailian revolvers it's painted on, not covered in charcoal and baked at 1800 or so degrees for 4-6 hours to carbonize it. If it was you'd be hard press to cut it with a file. There is a methoud, not sure what the Italians use, but you can piant the pattern on and take a torch and color it.

St. George · February 28, 2007, 11:36:02 AM

I didn't say that someone couldn't do it - but Remington apparently didn't see the need to do it.

By the time they were in full wartime production - metallurgy was changing enough to where they probably didn't feel that they'd gain anything - especially since they had the Government contract for the revolver as initially presented to Ordnance.

Colt did - perhaps as a marketing device, perhaps because they felt that it offered a stronger metal.

Factory decisions like those just weren't recorded any place where someone can find them.

The Italian method is/was different - I seem to remember it being done by flame and chemicals, and was very off-putting to a lot of folks because the result was that weird, 'iridescent' sort of 'case-coloring' - while we were more used to the Bone Charcoal result that Colt and Winchester used - that smoky, blue/grey look that's so highly prized.

As to the question of 'if the factory didn't do it' - that answer's simple - modern-day marketing and the ability to entice a few more dollars from the buyer's wallet through an attractive presentation results in some configurations specifically designed with that goal in mind.

Scouts Out!

sundance44`s · February 28, 2007, 02:24:39 PM

I`d like to know if when I bought my Uberti casehardened frame Remmie ...I paid a higher price for color ... I hope not I won`t buy another one if thats the case ...Think I`ll go to the Uberti site and write them an email about it and ask them ...I`ll let ya know what they say .

will52100 · February 28, 2007, 03:05:10 PM

I didn't mean that the old gunsmiths did, but if your chariter has one, it's easy for him or her to say "I goter done special" at ye old gunsmith than to say it's not period correct.

I'd be interested to see what Uberti is doing, if it is real case harding, it's tempered too low a RC or so thin that it makes no differance. With the old steels and even the new steels being used in cap guns color case harding will improve strength, though you may never notice.

The flame methoud, if I remember rite was taken off the market in the US due to the hazardous chemicles, but I could be wrong. Also color case harding colors has a lot to do with the charcoal and the methoud of case harding, I've seen case hardened parts that you couldn't tell by looking at them that they were case harded. But if you ground into it and etched with acid it'd show the boundary layer and differant crystline structure.

sundance44`s · March 01, 2007, 07:27:16 AM

I hear back from Uberti this morning on the casehardening question ....They told me the color is just.... that ....a color and will wear off in time ....same strenght as their regular steel frame Remmie .
Good to know ...I still think its easyer to clean black powder fouling off of , and could be because it is a top coat over the steel . They still make fine guns , and the extra cost was in the 20 dollar range so I`m not hurt . I like all my Remmies .

Stacey Lee · March 01, 2007, 07:56:51 AM

That's good to know Sundance44,
thanks for the update, am sure my Pietta is the same too. And here I thought I had a tougher than nails gun, and I do, just not a real case-hardened specimen really. Makes me wonder if my Uberti made Colt Flat Top Target Peacemaker is the same ? The case-hardening is very grey and black, no real color in it? Wonder if they have perfected coloring real case coloring too ? Probably. Oh well, my bubbles busted today.

I suppose paying the extra $20 to $50 for a gun we find attractive is ok too. I know they do hold more oil in the finish than standard Italian blueing, so I guess that's a good thing too.
Pretty is pretty and they surely are that, so no complaints there.

Cheers, Stacey Lee

sundance44`s · March 01, 2007, 08:18:59 AM

After thinking about it ..I`m sure it would cost us a lot more if it were to be real cashardening .....probally a lot more ...

Marshal Will Wingam · March 01, 2007, 12:23:29 PM

I guess one could always send the frame off to Turnbull. That would certainly be the real deal. Of course, it would cost accordingly, too. Sure would be a beautiful finish, though.

Tuolumne Lawman · March 01, 2007, 01:47:48 PM

A good example of Turnbull case hardening is the Marlin 1894 Century Ltd. 44-40. Marlin had the receivers engraved (by I forget who) and then sent the receivers to Turnbull for real bone case hardening. They are gorgeous! Not cheap, though. I just gave $889.00 out the door for a used Century Ltd. (98%+) with no box. That's why I sold my Henry, to get the Ltd. It was still a good buy, though. NIB run $1300 or so now, and they are getting scarce.